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108 comments from readers

McGill
19 June 2008 at 23:08

I'm surprised Mr Cruddas has the time to pen articles given all those properties he supports at tax payers expense to maintain.

Never have the few owed so much to the many to coin a phrase.

paganwarrior
20 June 2008 at 14:25

The labour party have betrayed white working class people.

Bullying Britain into accepting multiculturalism and putting immigrants before whites has created this very real backlash.

won'tvotelabouragain
20 June 2008 at 14:33

I was a life long Labour voter but it has becoem clear to me that 'left' activists are only interested in minority groups. In addition to this there is a large undercurrent of anti-white racism amongst Asian and Black communities . This is particularly evident when one is dealing with 'minority' management at promotion and job interviews. Of course no Labour figure would recognise this as it doesn't chime with their pre-conceived script of white oppression.

Labour can take a flying leap if it thinks I will ever vote for them again.

Won't get fooled again
20 June 2008 at 21:24

I am a BNP member. Ten years ago, I wouldn't have gone near a BNP member with a barge pole, and yet now I am one. Why you ask? The arrogance, disdain and repeated unfairness with which the Labour party has treated my people, the white working-class English, has sickened me to the core, and even moreso because I voted Labour in 1997. Mr Cruddas, people like you created people like me, and now we are here to stay.

Boatman
20 June 2008 at 23:35

My parents are both lifelong labour and my mother was a labour councillor, but she's given up political involvement feeling betrayed, i'm in the BNP. labour is just another party of the chattering class, the elite urban minority of David Cameron. The BNP has got the guts to tell the truth and fight for our country.

Bernard
21 June 2008 at 00:03

PS- and take that fellow-travelling pinko Lowles with you.

indian4life
21 June 2008 at 11:17

I am supporting the BNP because they are the only party who don't have their heads deep in the taxpayers trough!

martyn page
21 June 2008 at 11:58

i remember voting for tony blair when he first stood .now i am a bnp member how things have changed.! the bnp are the only party that tells the truth.

antileft
21 June 2008 at 13:34

I hate to tell all those BNP supporters here the truth but, well, here goes. British people are the most lazy, most agressive, most likely to pull sickies, most unproductive, most violent, most likely to be alcoholic, people in Britain. The BNP supporters here seem to think that they have something to be proud of here. Well, you don't. There is nothing to be proud of. Nationalism is so dumb- but its even dumber when you come from a miserable, overrated little country like Britain. I've travelled extensively all over the world, but the place which is the most unpleasant, the most full of nasty little alcoholic thugs, and with the ugliest, rudest women, worst food, and crappiest weather, is Britain. I say fill it with foreigners.

Paul Evans
21 June 2008 at 16:18

Does anyone know where I can get hold of Richard Banbrook's movie? I am writing a dissertation on Marxist pornography, and 'HMS Discovery: A Love Story' is supposed to be the genre's preeminent work.

draegor
21 June 2008 at 21:18

I bet antileft wouldn`t have the guts to spew such anti-British hatred in public.I live for the day when someone of his/her ilk says something similiar to me.The right will win whether antileft likes it or not.

bertie bert
21 June 2008 at 21:42

Antilefti can see you are a person with intelligence. Let me extend another great British freedom, that is you can always leave us lazy fatties. bye.. toodle pip.

The BNP policies on law and order, getting prisoners to work for their keep and reahabilitation, green policies, taxation, education bringing back real teachers that actually want to teach proper subjects,(and giving them the powers to punish if the need arises ) funding university places , or a choice of civil or military national service, funding of apprenticeships ,self sufficiency in food productions and industry , get our forces out of all foreign countries and bring them back home and look after our borders, peak oil investing in new energy production using green methods, restoring our canals , railways , restoring farming , fishing etc, getting out of the EU , and use the money to fund the said projects, and many many more great ideas!!, is a good reason to vote BNP.

bertie bert
21 June 2008 at 21:49

oh and, The BNP policies on law and order,deporting ILLEGAL immigrants and bogus asylum seekers of ALL races, If you want to work and live in Britain then welcome, if you abide by our laws, and it is in the country and the immigrants interest to be here of what ever race!

McGill
21 June 2008 at 22:19

Thanks "antileft" but there is no point trying to wind us up Mr Lowles.

This country has been run into the ground by multicultural liberal marxists and global big business not Nationalists. The BNP have not been in power,your friends have so if you have a problem with the way Britain is it is the mess created by your kind. I am delighted to write, however, I can smell the sweet smell of the winds of change blowing away the traitors, incompetents and corruption of the old gang.

Won't get fooled again
21 June 2008 at 22:33

Antileft, it's interesting that the only response you have to some salient points here, is to throw insults. That's generally just about the level the BNP's opponents are capable of. Glad to see you're true to form. Sticks and stones, and all that.

IsThatcherDeadYet
21 June 2008 at 22:41

Labour have betrayed the entire working class, not just whites. Grow up.

Won't get fooled again
21 June 2008 at 23:00

But whites have suffered the most because none of the others have suffered dispossession to salve middle-class liberal concience. Don't tell me to grow up when I have lived at the sharp end of this crap all my life!

draegor
22 June 2008 at 01:07

Come on antileft,lets have some more vitriol!You are a dying breed, and we enjoy being demonised and racially abused!

jrb
22 June 2008 at 01:08

I must admit that until very recently I viewed the old establishment of two-and -a -half big parties enjoying a monopoly of all power as more or less set in concrete. But not any more - both the rise of the BNP and the descent of Labour are beginning to look inexorable, not least because the world in which we have all grown up since 1945 is beginning to disintegrate and the BNP is in the right place at the right time.

matproctor
22 June 2008 at 06:28

anyone who feels capable of making sweeping generalisations based on nationality, race, or religion, is sadly deluded and demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge about life's realities.

That makes both the BNP and AntiLeft bottom of the class.

Its not where you're from, its where you're at

(G.Clinton)

Won't get fooled again
22 June 2008 at 10:57

Matproctor, how sensible and, well, liberal of you. Lived in many inner city areas like Brixton or Peckham, have you. No, didn't think so!

rictus
22 June 2008 at 11:38

The horror of New Labour. The death of hope, their foul enrichment of corporate power. At least Thatcher was in the right party. In many ways, aren't New Labour the new right ?

indian4life
22 June 2008 at 12:21

matproctor would not be believing in his words if he had my house!

Asians do not much like white people regardless if matproctor believes or not.

Arminius
22 June 2008 at 15:43

The times they are a-changin', eh?

The class of '68 have become the new overclass- "enlightened" liberal elites whose ideas went unchallenged until recently- their demonisation of their opponents (see Antileft's exemplary piece) just doesn't wash any more.

Deconstruction with nothing to replace it, and a welfare system designed to create dependency has given the overclass a new apathetic and prideless underclass on whom to experiment (Antileft's "lazy, fat slobs"- fellow Brits to you and me), and doesn't it just get their goat when real solutions are offered?

It comes down to the fact that the left liberal elites see the working class as their personal fiefdom- the workers must accept the patronage of Lowles, Cruddas and "Antileft"- mustn't they? Not any more- the BNP are rising, you are falling, and one day you'll have to work for your money just like the "nasty, alcoholic thugs" you despise and yet rely on.

Redview
22 June 2008 at 16:43

Hang on a minute. The BNP are the political descendants of those who shoved Jews into the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

upbeatskeptic
22 June 2008 at 16:52

A large part of the problem is that all those ideologies and structures that have traditionally gathered in diverse sections of the community, uniting them under one common identity, have been systematically dismantled by contemporary ultra-liberal politics. For example, the Royal Family has been hounded by an ever envious liberal elite, even though the 'common man' takes much pride in the distinct mix of tradition and identity they offer the British people. The Church has been gradually eroded as a social adhesive, denied the voice to shape and inform a distinctly British culture and identity. The British Commonwealth has had its crimes endlessly scrutinised, whilst the social, political and economic empowerment if offered to its membership, and the sense of shared values and aspirations it cultivated amongst its proletariat, has been intentionally and consistently ignored (or denied) by a liberal elite both unwilling and incapable of aspiring to greatness on an increasingly disharmonious world stage. Until contemporary thought can offer something with the power to unite diversity, to transcend the relativity of common political culture, then the increasing atomisation of society shall continue apace, and the drift towards ever more extreme affiliations will continue to flow.

93collol
22 June 2008 at 17:40

Those of you who believe that a party, who think women shouldn't work, and are against homosexuality,and migration, need to face up to it. We live in a world where tolerance is needed, where women will work-and do very well-people are gay-there is no serious moral, ethical argument against it, and people migrate from country to country. Oh and Asians dont like white people, erm... that is racist (or certainly generalist) I have a pakistani friend, she likes loads of white people. I dont even need to validate my argument.

Amos
23 June 2008 at 10:56

Everyone who has written on here; writes with anger and miss the entire point of why having a healthy debate in cyber space or in public brings cohesion. Race, Immigration and culture are all I read about. Imagine England without any minority (black of Asian), there will always be hate. The BNP or any other guise of such, will find other scape goat to blame for the economy – the Irish or the Scottish. Not so long ago, it was No Blacks, No Irish or Dogs. Dogs and the Irish are no longer part of the problem. I imagine people, who write here, probably work or live with minorities, they exchange pleasantries or whatever, but underneath it all is loathing. So when a political party comes along that voice their views, they latch on to it. Vote whoever you wish, it is a democratic country, but don’t vote because you hate. It won’t solve the problem of the economy and as much as the working class (both white and black now) like to blame immigrants for taking their jobs, this, please think, is far from the truth. We should look within ourselves. Who are the contractors who employ this immigrants; mostly, sometimes illegal? They are all white men. Greedy white men who want to make a fast buck. There is on class barrier here, working class or middle class men are all at it. I bet members of the BNP or those who vote for them are these men. Primark is a classic example. Why can’t they open a factory in the UK and create employment for thousands, instead of going to India? They want to make a fast buck and don’t care how it affects the economy. Look at the bigger picture people! All you BNP supporters and those considering of voting them, vote them in and let’s see what change they bring to your local area, then let the BNP use you as a prime example of how life has become so good for you. All political parties have an agenda far beyond race. I wonder whether BNP will exist if there were no minorities in England. Imagine that, now what policies will BNP have then?

I don’t even know what multiculturalism means anymore. At most, it is a concept rather than a practical on-going thing - just like community. Everyone goes on about this community or that community, when they hardly know their neighbours. Just because I am black or white, does not make me a member of whatever media-appointed group, everyone is an individual. Okay, I am not in agreement of people, because of skin colour or race concentrating in one area or feel they ought to impose their way of life (culture or whatever) onto the country that’s given them the opportunity to reside in a conducive environment. Everyone that seeks to reside in another country should adapt to it, not seek to change it to their way of thinking. Integrate into British way of life and be proud. Just in case you were wondering, I am black and British and proud to be. BNP or not, this is home for me, United will Stand and Divided will fall. Peace.

Colonel Blimp
23 June 2008 at 11:49

"Dogs and the Irish are no longer part of the problem" - tell that to a man who owns an unruly Pointer.

Serosch
23 June 2008 at 12:47

Good God, this BNP bunch are even more deluded than the Zionists.

matproctor
23 June 2008 at 12:54

won't get fooled again - Over the past 15 years I've been a resident of Oxford OX4 (Cowley), Liverpool L8 (Toxteth), London SW2 (Brixton), London E2 (Stepney/Shadwell), and London E9 (Hackney), so I would say that I had perhaps lived in an inner city or two, yes. What is the relevance to my argument that you shouldn't generalise about people because of where they come from or what colour they are?

You get out of life what you put in, so maye try spreading a bit of love, a bit of a smile, and you wouldnt be so down baby. Try it.

Arminius
23 June 2008 at 17:08

Amos, you write as somebody with admittedly little knowledge of the BNP- you are unaware of its policies on anything but race, and even then your portrayal is simply a media-created straw man (although nowhere near as bad as 93collol's bizarre attempted caricature)- I would suggest you read up a bit. The BNP has a full-fledged manifesto, dealing with topics from law and order to the environment, and it is available on their website.

Deconstruction of national identity, by deliberate propagandising and mass immigration coupled with divisive multiculturalism, has left people very insecure in their identities- perfect conditions for racism to thrive in all the little cracks in the fractured society we have had pushed upon us.

The race, much less the skin colour, of one individual is unimportant- but given the choice, on coming to a new country, would you move into a potentially hostile native neighbourhood or would you move into a neighbourhood where there were lots of people who were of similar background to you, who did things your sort of way?

The societal effects are only possible through mass migration- to satisfy the businessmen who want cheap labour, to satisfy the left, who dream of having their own pet minorities they can delude into assumed victimhood and then "champion", and of course the politicians, who thrive on the problems caused by these policies that "surely only a racist" would argue against, and in some cases who can simply import their voters.

You say that you are proud to be British- that's great news in these times- but you must surely realise Britain wasn't always the directionless, barely identifiable mess it is today, and we have our leaders and their poisonous social policies to thank for this.

The BNP are simply standing up for people who have become nearly worthless in the business of politics- as politicians have been able to import votes, and rely on apathy and dependency resulting from their earlier policies, the lower classes have seen their voice further and further cheapened in a hyperinflation of (often ethnically-based) special interests. Is it any surprise that they have realised how hollow the promises of the old left, who patronise them, and the new left, who despise them, really are?

That's why I'm voting BNP, and black or white, I think you should too- skin colour means little when everybody's back is against the wall.

JL
23 June 2008 at 19:56

The BNP is nothing to do with the 'failures' of the Labour Party or its 'betrayal' of working class voters. It is the inevitable outcome of the unreconstructed arrogance and remarkable ignorance of Middle England which, even now, cannot cope with the loss of the British Empire and face global geopolitical realities. The BNP appeals to the latent fascism and mob mentality of hoi polloi who despise democracy and as such it should be fully resisted. BNP voters disgrace themselves and betray their country, regardless of what the 'failings' of mainstream political parties may be.

draegor
23 June 2008 at 19:57

Dear Pencils, thank you at least for not trying to smear me as a crank or neo-nazi.As to the type of people in the BNP,from what I have observed on their website and in several meetings with members,they are absolutely ordinary people like you and me(the media will do anything to distort the reality),they would look after all our people`s interests be they disabled,unemployed, whatever.You can`t blame people for being doubtful when the benefits system is abused by so many.If you are genuine there would be no question of cutting off your means to live.The concentration camp remark is strange considering that most Sun / Mail readers vote for the present dictatorship.

Carl Jones
23 June 2008 at 19:58

One commentor above claims Labour forced him into supporting the BNP. As the BNP become more popular, then more established political parties can move their agenda further to the right or left.

It is a construct.

We had old Labour, conservatives with a small "c", Thatcher with a middle "c", Blair with a capital "C" and looking forwards to a Cameron with a small "f" (and brown shirts). God only knows who will carry the capital "F".....the second great depression is coming and we know what grew from that....so listen to David Davis, get rid of the British police state before its too late!

draegor
23 June 2008 at 20:20

JL, the BNP "despises democracy"?I hate to draw your attention to the obvious,but the current system is only a superficial democracy.The important issues are never addressed(long-term National planning,central bank debt-money fraud,immigration,quality of life problems)and in the current system,never will be.The BNP are demonised because they offer a possible solution.It`s not easy overcoming many years of subtle brainwashing,but it can be done if you honestly try.If your so against the BNP,at least look at the website to really know what your talking about.

Redview
23 June 2008 at 20:44

Sorry Pencils

I saw the meathooks at Buchenwald on which they hung the Russian prisoners of war. They were hauled up from there to the crematorium. (Are you suggesting that the Americans put the crematoriums in to create a myth about the Nazis?)The whole place was geared up for killing on a massive scale. The Nazis also killed disabled people. Admittedly there were no gas chambers there. Still 7,000 prisoners of war were shot to death while in captivity and political leaders like the French Social Democrat- Blum were murdered again while in captivity.

All the BNP leaders have convictions for violence. If they got in there'd be no rights for anyone else and no democracy. I'd rather live under Mugabe than that shower of thugs.

draegor
23 June 2008 at 21:11

Dear redview,

Don`t evade your own allegation.If you(and the state organs) had`nt lied for 60 years about the ULTIMATE EVIL, you would`nt have this crises in confidence.Btw, Seeing a meathook does not confer powers of seeing into the past unless you have spiritualist tendencies(I believe in the spirits and am not being sarcastic on this point)

gullible
24 June 2008 at 11:17

I am seriously starting to doubt the independence of the press,especially when you notice that some views are unjustly verboten.It only gives credence to certain people`s world-view.The likes of antileft and redview can get away with hurling horrific insults it seems.

Jonty Stang
24 June 2008 at 11:21

draegor - you don't need to speak to spirits - you can speak to Holocaust survivors.

cratermass
24 June 2008 at 11:45

If everyone truly listened to what everyone else had to say,and debated it freely without fear of censorship or violent retribution,there would be no need for state-supported lies and conspiracy.I urge all those with strong views to at least do some research into the factual basis of their opponents equally strong counter-views.The Net is your oyster.

draegor
24 June 2008 at 17:32

Jonty strang,

It is also an undeniable fact that THOUSANDS of people have had u.f.o experiences.Witness testimony is looked down on as evidence for good reasons.Much better to investigate the physical facts.I expect this whole debate will be hijacked by those who would rather talk about anything but the BNP`s policies,but I beg people to return to the actual topic.

Looserivet
25 June 2008 at 00:24

Was it not William Gladstone and the Conservative Party that oversaw the introduction of the concentration camps in the Boar War 1899-1902? I'm not sure but I don't think the BNP was in existence during this period or the second world war, and if you taint the BNP with the Nazi holocaust because they are nationalists. The surely all Conservatives must be to blame for Concentration Camps! As must all the lefties be blamed for the more than 120 million killed under Communism since the end of world war two.

Pencils
25 June 2008 at 09:18

Talking of freedom of the press. I note that my post was removed. I thought it was quite innocuous. I only just remembered that I posted here, so I can't quite remember exactly what I said, but I would guess that it was removed because of a mention of Germar Rudolf, in relation to the plausibility of the gaschambers i.e. that the gaschamber story might be more plausible if those, like Rudolf, who raise doubts, were not subjected to official persecution.

Is it not acceptable to mention even that much in the New Statesman?

Pencils
25 June 2008 at 09:40

120 million dead under communism since WWII? But everyone knows that communism wiped out the human race twice over. That's about 12 billion. Call it 100 billion just to be on the safe side.

Seriously though, where did 120 million people die in the communist world after WWII? Even the most rabid antilefts usually only claim that 70 million died in the Chinese famine during the 'Great Leap Forward', and nobody serious believes it was anything like that many - facts are still hard to come by, but there were certainly SEVERAL million, but nobody believes it was deliberate, and China had long suffered regular famines and no longer does. In fact, as you are no doubt well aware, throughout the entire communist world, mortality statistics vastly improved, so that even if you accepted the worst fabrications about Stalin and Mao, you would have to accept that, in the balance, they saved far more lives than they took. Where do you find your other 50 million by the way?

The opposite holds true for the capitalist world. The USA is responsible, directly or by directing, supporting and enabling, the killing of 5 million in Korea, 3 million in South East Asia, about 3 million (so far) in the mid E., about 1 million in South and Central America, and about 20 million in Africa ( Mozambique, Angola, Uganda, Rwanda, Congo). Call it a round 30 million! But if we're to apply the same standards we apply to the communist world, then we have to hold capitalism responsible for failures of health care and nutrition i.e all those who have starved or died of illness, preventably. That includes 'the third world' - we kept communism out didn't we.

Do you think that figure would round out to under 120 million?

draegor
25 June 2008 at 10:48

Dear Pencils,

I agree about the questionable statistics,but I fear we are being diverted from the article`s subject of the rise of the BNP and it`s impact on the corrupt politicians and their media running-dogs.Some contributors are determined to deny this reality and will point-blank refuse to talk about the BNP`s policies.

A brief summary of some of these policies:

Tearing up of previous illegal European treaties and a return to a purely trading relationship(very popular across Europe)

Reform of the ridiculous legal quagmire we are in.

Bringing strategic national resources and infrastructure back into public ownership.

Real environmental protection.

Re-introduction of a quality education system.

A sensible immigration policy.

I would urge readers to visit the BNP`s website to see for themselves what the "knuckle-draggers" program for government really is.They will quickly find that they have been massively lied to by the mainstream media about many issues.

cash cow
25 June 2008 at 17:55

The leader of the BNP, Nick Griffin is a dictator. He follows the 'leadership principle'.

As defined in Encyclopædia Britannica:

"Fascists defended the Führerprinzip (“leadership principle”), the belief that the party and the state should have a single leader with absolute power. Hitler was the Führer and Mussolini the Duce, both words for the “leader” who gave the orders that everyone else had to obey."

If you don't believe me check your party's accounts if you have access to them that is? Lol.

A look at page 6 will confrm: The party leader, Griffin states :

“The leader has sole control of and responsibility for, the administration, finances, strategy, policy development and tactical decisions. As the party grows, more and more of this responsibility is delegated, but the underlying Leadership Principle is unaffected by such day-to-day arrangements.”

Like following a fascist who has control over your dosh do you?

A pig farmer who has his one eye on investments in Croatia is not to be trusted.

Pencils
25 June 2008 at 17:55

I've read the BNP policy statements, and it's the best political program I've seen for the UK - almost identical to Michael Foots' s so called 'suicide note', and subject to as much derision - those were the policies we needed then, and we need now.. I agree with almost everything, unlike UKIP who I disagree with about almost everything except Europe and integration. I wish I could believe they were sincere..

Apart from the violent histories of some of the top BNP people (I could allow that they may have been set up in some cases, only just), it's the muslim-bashing which slips into all the current BNP writings, all within the permissable range of discourse set by the Tabloids re the ' war on terror' (ie war on us). This gives me the impression that the BNP are as acceptable as they have to be, and as racist as they can get away with. Sorry, but it's still a big lingering doubt. I have big reservations about multiculturalism, and have some beefs with the muslim community's attitude to a lot of things, also with the importing of millions of catholics from Poland, and I despise the 'anti-fascist' lot ( I couldn't do that justice in a short post), but I'll still take a lot of convincing to see the BNP as a friendly face.

While we're at it - I suppose someone has mentioned this already ( i didn't reread all the previous posts this time) but John Cruddas grandstanding about fascism, after having voted for 42 day detention without trial! Give us a break!

draegor
25 June 2008 at 22:32

Dear Cash Cow,

Regardless of how Nick Griffin runs the BNP organisation(Your page 6 reference is an absolute mystery to me)He would be voted for, and against in the usual democratic fashion.I`m surprised you comment on party finances,given the current porcine behaviour of our elected officials.I wouldn`t like to say what I would find if I looked deeply into the finances of the other parties.As for spurious ad hominem attacks,you must be very proud of yourself,and indeed you are doing good work in giving the readers an accurate representation of the BNP`s most fervent opponents.

MadBadger
26 June 2008 at 17:27

The trouble with the BNP is that they are opportunistic and will jump on any bandwagon to garner votes to then push their racist agenda. Spreaders of falsehoods about things that immigrants get in benefits, for instance, in order to wind up the poor old white working class who swallow the lies and think they are worse off because of it. Coupled with the fact that the 'politicians' of the BNP are quite too inept to run a country I doubt that they will ever get any real power.

draegor
26 June 2008 at 21:44

Dear Mad Badger,

You make the classic,media-induced mistake of confusing patriotism with racism.Believe it or not,they are in fact different.While it is true that the BNP want to ensure the future of the ethnic British,that is not at the cost of all other ethnicities.The ethnic British know that they are being discriminated against on a daily basis,and they know that there is a limit to uncontrolled immigration.The "falsehoods" about immigrant statistics, are actually coming from the Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship(as a Lord`s report some time ago clearly stated)

The BNP are gaining the necessary political experience with their ever-growing number of local government councillors, not to mention the newly elected GLA member Mr Richard Barnbrook(480,000 "spoilt" ballot papers after being stored over-night with police protection?)

These representatives of the BNP are proving much more popular with their constituents than the old-gang.The British people are slowly waking up to the reality of our sham democracy(e.g Lisbon Treaty) and the BNP will continue it`s mission to save this Country from descending even further into the chaos and anarchy that the Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship has planned for us.

I expect you doubted many things could have happened in the past, yet they happened all the same.

MadBadger
26 June 2008 at 22:44

I disagree. The vast majority of this country will not vote for the BNP. I note that you did not address my particular points either. Spreading rumour and falsehood is the bent of the nazis.

draegor
26 June 2008 at 23:46

Dear Mad Badger,

So,you think that you can speak for the vast majority of the people of this Country?Very revealing.

Spreading rumour and falsehood have been the hallmark of all authoritarian dictatorships of whatever description,as I`m sure you know(?).I think that I have addressed your points adequately,so please elaborate.

Yet again, I see that the infantile "Nazi" canard is deployed to try and close down much needed debate.This is an insult to all the decent people who have voted for the BNP,and all those who will do so in the future.

MadBadger
27 June 2008 at 00:02

yeah, I do think that I speak for the vast majority of people in this country who don't want to see the bnp in power. Most people have more sense. How is that "very revealing "? Please, "elaborate". I've seen the bnp website before and found it to be full of neo-nazi crap. As for anybody who has voted for the bnp in the past I pity the porr deluded bastards. How's that? The bnp will never get into power. Sorry for you.

draegor
27 June 2008 at 02:54

Dear Madbadger,

If you are intending to just keep shouting "Nazi",while refusing to talk about the reasons behind the BNP`s recent advancement than I am more than willing to keep up with you in pointing out how pathetic the left has become.

Nice result in Henley for the Lieburrower Party would`nt you say?

Vast majority turned their noses up at the bottler broon and his merry gang did`nt they?

The BNP recieved more votes than the Lieburrower Party did they not?

Or would you say you are politically neutral(maybe Tory?)?

antileft
27 June 2008 at 09:07

"I bet antileft wouldn`t have the guts to spew such anti-British hatred in public."

This is EXACTLY what Im talking about!!!! How hilarious, isnt it?! The way you just confirmed all my prejudice like that?! I said you brits are violent and agressive so many times, and what dyou say?! That if I said that Im public Id be beaten up! Hahaha yeah well, thats exactly what Im saying! If I say something anti- Japanese in Japan, they dont hit me, they debate it. That's the way it is in asia- at least from india and East of there (mostly). And there are a lot more asians than everything else- so youre the unusual ones- don't think that "they" are somehow the dysfunctional minority.

"You are a dying breed, and we enjoy being demonised and racially abused!"

Oh yes, in a right wing, capitalist world, a right wing capitalist is really a dying breed! I think you have me mistaken for an old fashioned, old labour leftie.

"At least Thatcher was in the right party. In many ways, aren't New Labour the new right ?"

They sure are! Which just shows that the right has all the control- throughout the whole spectrum.

"Asians do not much like white people regardless if matproctor believes or not."

"Asians" will soon be 70 percent of the world- saying they "dont like white people" is racist and it certainly isnt true. You should know better. But you dont, because LIKE A USUAL BNP SUPPORTER youve hardly been anywhere for more than a brief beer holiday. Which is why you seem to think that britain is somehow a decent place to live! Hahaha yeah sure.

"Oh and BTW ANTILEFT, our women are the envy of the world,as your beloved ethnic skirt-chasers prove."

Haha yeah sure! Soon 50 percent of you will be overweight! Hardly attractive, is it?!

"the BNP are rising"

Hahahaha yeah sure. Im sure itll be a landslide. Good luck to you!!! Youll need it!!!! Id be AMAZED if you ever reach the 20 percent mark. And no one believes the liberals will rule for a loooooooong time- youll have to overtake them first! Again, GOOD LUCK TO YOU! I prefer you to vote BNP- it takes away your vote from your second choice (who may actually win).

draegor
27 June 2008 at 11:07

Dear Antileft,

Welcome back to the debate,if we can honestly call it that.Your first point regarding saying offensive things in public,I wouldn`t dream of assaulting people who disagree with my worldview, but I would give them solid facts in order to provide a meaningfull dialogue(sadly lacking on this forum).

You say you are a right wing capitalist,so I would presume you are happy with the asset-stripping which has decimated many communities over the past couple of decades.

I am merely suggesting by this that the terms "right-wing" and "capitalist" are extremely broad categories.It seems that you agree with Jack Straw`s view that the British "are not worth saving as a race"?

Your statement "...the right has all the control-throughout the whole spectrum" is true to an extent,but ignores how this situation came about.

For instance,do you approve of fractional reserve banking,and do you know what J.F.K`s executive order 11110 contained?

Come to think of it,do you know about J.F.K`s staunch oppostion to a nuclear-armed Israel?

I`m willing to bet he was a victim of those "right wing" full-spectrum-dominance proponents you seem to approve of.

Btw, did you see Pencils comment above about the reasons for Germar Rudolph(and many others)imprisonment?

WelshPatriot
27 June 2008 at 12:01

I'm a married for 30 years family man. I have worked all my life to support my family. I am not religious, but I believe that Christian principals have kept this country stable, up until 10 ago, when the Labour government, began the destruction of the British way of life that I grew up with. The are destroying our history, our culture and our country.

I have read the manifestos of all the political parties, so now I vote BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY.

JL
27 June 2008 at 17:33

People like WelshPatriot (who is nothing of the sort of course) make me glad that I no longer live in the UK. The only rational way for the UK to survive in the global economy is by becoming part of the powerful economic, political and military bloc that the EU has the potential to become. Without it, the British Isles will decline into irrelevance.

knave
27 June 2008 at 20:50

Reading the gay clergy thread and this one fills me with dismay.

Bigotry fuelled by journos and writers like Martin Amis. Andrew Anthony and Nick Cohen .

Talk about been depressed.

What really depresses me is that i have to slightly agree with some of antileft's comments. Now that is depressing.

To paraphrase the song '"The future belongs to you"

WelshPatriot
28 June 2008 at 11:02

Cruddas is worried he will lose his seat on the gravy train!

draegor
28 June 2008 at 14:32

Dear JL,

To denegrate WelshPatriot`s patriotism,while confessing that you no longer live in the U.K is very revealing.

So you think nations who exist outside supra-national blocks will not survive?

That might be because their independence will be a direct challenge to the One-world power freaks.

Even more reason to oppose the formation of these artificial blocs in the first place.

JL
28 June 2008 at 16:56

Draegor,

So your 'artificial blocs' would include the UK then, since that is composed of an 'artificial' union of several countries. Difficult to see what legitimacy the UK has in any case given that Wales was annexed by Henry VIII and that Scotland was manipulated into the Union by an aristocratic coup that provoked riots in just about every Scotish city. If we are to follow your logic of national self-determination draegor, that would require the break up of the UK.

As for supra-national unions, the United States in fact constitutes one such entity, having absorbed previously independent jurisdictions such as Texas and Louisiana in order to create a more perfect, and far larger, polity. The model for a united Europe should be the United States.

draegor
28 June 2008 at 19:03

Dear JL,

You are hitting the nail on the head unintentionally.The E.U has stated in it`s documents(I dare you to call me a liar)that the U.K will not be considered a political entity,and will be governed by regional assemblies.

The people of the U.K are willing to share soveriegnty(some more than others) in our own Islands,but unlikely to want to share it with over 400 million European residents who are equally powerless to reign in the power of the central commitee of ministers.

You`re use of the United States as an example is amusing,because even though their Country is the size of a continent,the American/Canadian/Mexican branches of the bilderburger crime-cartel are pushing to form a North-American conglomerate.The same policy of carving up natural entities (Countries and States) and over-population of the cities and de-population of other ares to suit the whims of the Elit

e is being carried out there(see the film ENDGAME:A BLUEPRINT FOR GLOBAL ENSLAVEMENT by Alex Jones).A certain group of people have these stated aims:

1.World Government

2.A world Currency

3.A world Police Force/Armed Forces

Everything George Orwell warned us against.I`ll never forget what George Orwell`s character O`Brien in the book 1984,says to winston :"Do you want a picture of what the future will look like Winston?.........Imagine a boot stamping on a human face forever"

gnuneo
28 June 2008 at 20:39

"Do you want a picture of what the future will look like Winston?.........Imagine a boot stamping on a human face forever".

a perfect image of what the future would look like under the BNP.

i find it somewhat amusing that the later posters attempted to claim the BNP isn't 'really' racist, considering the views that the earlier posters proclaimed, as though a british person with a built-in tan is somehow less british!

the imbecility of such a position, highlights perfectly the underlying stupidity of the racist far-right.

yes, the current parties are indeed forcing through policies that are apparently designed to reinstitute the feudal times, of a few very wealthy, and many many poor with no access to health care, decent education, or worthwhile social benefits, but to imagine that in the multi-polar world this can be somehow blamed on "immigants" (most of whom are actually born in this country anyway), is to reveal the absolute bankruptcy of the BNP and its far-right ilk.

an earlier poster put it best - the scapegoating of *immigrants* is actualy second place to the fact of *scapegoating* itself, such an ideology will always find (will need to find) someone to blame, and indeed, will follow the current new lab/con of then using such scapegoats to force through legislation restricting the rights of all.

when power is associated with hatred, such power will never do good.

the BNP are rising because the mainstream parties are indeed failing to deliver what the people of this country need (which btw is the same as what people in all other countries need, there are no special 'needs' for british people), combined with the tabloid press's deliberate instigation of racism - now, think about this. The tabloid press are not owned by the people working in it, nor by communities, they are owned en masse by the ultra-wealthy. Why would the ultra-wealthy be pushing a political agenda that scapegoats racial minorites, who apart from being more culturally diverse, have pretty much exactly the same problems and concerns as the other people in their economic bracket, regardless of colour?

on the same question, why did the ultra-wealthy in germany support hitler's rise to power?

and as the final question, although in the short term hitler's racist, hate filled policies did benefit some small amount of the german working class, were there any long-term gains for them, bearing in mind the fuhrerprinzip strongly tends towards dictatorship, which strongly tends towards featherbedding, corruption, and lack of any kind of democratic accountability, especially when the hatred of "immigrants" has led to the building of places where they can be disposed of... immigrants, gays, political opponents, non-christians... how easy it is to sign a piece of paper to get rid of such dissidency, once the dictatorship is in place, and the 'Cleansing Camps' are in full swing.

we are currently seeing a Police State being built around us, would someone like nick griffiths dismantle it? Even you BNP supporters should be able to see the honest answer to that.

jumping out of the frying pan into the fire, is not the sensible course of action.

would you really want to live under a white Mugabe?

draegor
28 June 2008 at 22:58

Dear gnuneo,

You at least admit that the current dictatorship has failed.The tabloids are only against immigrants to the same degree that the government are i.e for appearances sake,knowing full well the Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship won`t do anything serious about the ongoing invasion.

The BNP do not suscribe to the fuhrer principle,that is just not true.

If the BNP are racist,then in exactly the same way the the Muslim Council Of Britain,or the Association of Black Police Officers are racist,or are you a subscriber to the same double-standards-is-o.k theory in matters of ethnicity that is promoted by our elite?

The elite are indeed(in practice)stirring up racial tensions in order to use their new oppressive powers on the most patriotic section of this Country(and any other dissenters)in order to clear the way for their sick utopia.

Any government could either build or dismantle the police state.It is a case of who do you trust.When you vote,it is a matter of trust.The Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship are the ones who are not to be trusted.They are the ones who are intellectually bankrupt.

More of the same, anyone?

We already do live under a White Mugabe,his name is bottler broon,who even now,clings to power gollum-like(my preeeccioous!)

P.s I prefer not to use insults as a rule,but that despicable creature broon is the absolute bottom of the barrel in every respect.

gnuneo
29 June 2008 at 05:45

dear dreagor, please don't take offence, but i feel you miss the larger picture.

"You at least admit that the current dictatorship has failed.The tabloids are only against immigrants to the same degree that the government are i.e for appearances sake,knowing full well the Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship won`t do anything serious about the ongoing invasion."

the hatred against the immigrants stirred up against the immigrants by the media/lab/cons, is not just a facade, it has a particular purpose in mind, ie blaming them for the ills of British Society, which can largely be summed up in real terms as based upon having a class society - a society of those who own, and those who do not.

they are being blamed for shortages in our welfare system, that any sane person will realise has probaby more to do with the top 10% of the wealthy in Britian doubling their wealth in the last 10 years, than a bunch of relatively poor people coming here to work and pay taxes.

thus the blaming of 'immigrants' whether from countries we invaded and colonised, or from new east european allies, has more to do with diversionary tactics than actual facts of our economic reality.

so in social terms the media blitz on "immigration", is really little more than a scapegoating of a vulnerable minority to hide the economic facts, which is the rich are far too f***ing rich, to the point they are draining the lifeblood from the people, and has bug all to do with poor immigrants coming over to work and pay taxes.

see my comments on this page:

http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2008/06/house-prices-hou...

near the current bottom.

so yes, the lab/con Govt will not actually do anything 'about' the immigration, as it is not actually harming the UK, and more importantly, they are easy to blame for shortages caused by the ultra-wealthy not paying their share of taxes.

"The BNP do not suscribe to the fuhrer principle,that is just not true."

i have seen quotes upon this page that say the exact opposite. Whilst i am familiar with the 'smear-the-opposition' tactics of the media and mainstream parties, unfortunately i have to say that this appears to fit in with the general trend of right-wing thinking, and thus i am far more likely to accept them as being true i n this case.

"If the BNP are racist,then in exactly the same way the the Muslim Council Of Britain,or the Association of Black Police Officers are racist,or are you a subscriber to the same double-standards-is-o.k theory in matters of ethnicity that is promoted by our elite?"

yes, these bodies are also racist, and i will agree 100% on that. But there is a difference between the racism of a minority, and the racism of a majority, especially when the majority is whipped up into a fervour of hatred. I'm sure you will realise this is true.

but nonetheless, i agree with you that the racism of these groups is unacceptable, for the simple reason that racism (in the sense of hating another group, and not just recognising differences) is profoundly unacceptable in itself - which also includes such overtly racist groupings such as the BNP. I'm certain you have heard that "2 wrongs do not make a right", and just because such groups as the black panthers existed, does not make the existence of the KKK acceptable. Jewish pre-war racism, does not justify Auschwitz.

feminism does not justify wife-beating.

"The elite are indeed(in practice)stirring up racial tensions in order to use their new oppressive powers on the most patriotic section of this Country(and any other dissenters)in order to clear the way for their sick utopia."

yes.

so why are you supporting this?

"Any government could either build or dismantle the police state.It is a case of who do you trust.When you vote,it is a matter of trust.The Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship are the ones who are not to be trusted.They are the ones who are intellectually bankrupt."

philosphical upgrade - "the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend". There are more than two 'states' to choose between - just because i do not agree with the new-lab/con govt, does not mean i have to jump into bed with the even further right-wing. I have my own mind.

as for brown - well, there ARE worse, bush for one, and i strongly suspect griffiths is another.

I simply do not see that a political program based upon hatred of minor skin shades to be acceptable, i do not accept it in african hatred of white people, in asian dislike of white people, and i can see absolutely NO reason why i should, or can, accept white hatred of black, asian, or whatever.

it is pathetic, it is weak, and it is the mark of the loser. In no society where racists are in control, have those societies developed in a good way. I fail to see how white, british racism can buck this universal trend.

the BNP are a bunch of whiners, hiding their own insecurities and weakness behind racism, just like EVERY racist movement throughout history, throughout the entire world.

dislike the current state of affairs yes, leverage that into infantile racist hatred, how utterly pathetic.

fight for people's right to own their own homes, and their own companies - don't be diverted into liking or disliking people based upon skin colour, that will benefit NO British person, white, black, yellow, female, gay, all the colours of our heterodix society.

i am proud to be part of a culture that can accept differences, that is liberal, open and secular, that is not some 3rd world racist religious shit-hole, and i oppose those who wish to make us follow in such a path. Especially when they do it from weakness, and insecurity.

draegor
29 June 2008 at 06:44

Dear Gnuneo,

I mean no disrespect by this,but I can`t help feeling that your large post can be boiled down to this:

1.We can take as many immigrants as there are in the world who want to come to this Country.

2.These large numbers of immigrants pose no problems to our quality of life,in fact,they are the very engine of the economy,and we are a spiritually much better people for their presence here.

3.I can`t bring myself to trust the BNP under any circumstances because of my liberal World-view which precludes any type of national feeling.

4.Remember the mind-boggling slaughter of the biggest,most scientific,most audacious,extermination program that the human mind can imagine!

5.Patriotism must really be racism.

I have dealt with these non- issues in my previous posts.I can`t argue about emotions,only about facts.

fairplay
29 June 2008 at 09:38

i think we can all acknowledge that if either of the main political parties spoke for the masses the bnp wouldnt even be spoken about.

however, that is not the case and british people feel like second class citizens in their own home. it is not right but its what the NWO/EU/BANKERS want. along with the breakdown of the family unit. whether you like it or not, millions of britons still have strong values, strong enough to use the bnp as a protest vote. i doubt they would if they didnt have to. i wouldnt vote bnp under normal circumstances but if it gave the other parties a much needed kick up the arse maybe its worth it.

gnuneo
29 June 2008 at 14:03

draegor:

1. we have a physical space that is limited, so therefore population is limited. In fact i would say the UK is over-populated, so no, i don't think there should be unrestricted immigration. However every healthy society can allow a certain amount of immigration and emigration, people with certain skills, people who wish to experience a certain culture, people who wish simply to make a better life for themselves, people who wish to retire in the sun.

and lets face it, the main beef that BNP and suchlike nazis have about "immigration", is purely over skin shade, would you mind 600,000 swedish, finnish or danish coming over? A grumble or two, at most.

and most British 'non-whites' are actually born British, English, Scottish whatever, but then you probably imagine that there is a level of melatonin beyond which Britishness is impossible, like a brown-eyed child going into hysterics the first time he meets a blue-eyed child.

yeah, racism really IS that immature.

2. engine, schmengine. The people in this society develop the economy, no matter born here or not. Are they an economic bonus? Yes, moreso than rupert bloody murdock and his refusal to pay a single penny in income tax to the UK, that's for sure. Are they driving us? No, that will probably be the *millions* of normal Britons, not the 6% of the population that are immigrants.

Spiritually better? Hell yes, i like diversity, i like new experiences, i loathe forced conformity. I regard those who wish to enforce confomity as being mentally damaged.

3. nationalism /= racism. Since before the time of the vikings, the British Isles have been a multi-cultural haven, they have never been a unified block racially, culturally, or even linguistically! So i have absolutely no idea where you get this notion that to be British requires you to be racist. Nor why to be proud to be British, you have to feel inferior to other 'races'?

kill what you can't conquer eh? How pathetic.

4. yes, i would say thats worth bearing in mind, it was not even 100 years ago, yet here you are again spouting the same old rubbish.

5. no, patriotism is a pride in one's country, culture, language. Patriotism does not require you to hate other countries, cultures or languages. That's called inferiority complex, small-minded infantile loserdom, and frankly completely un-English.

we were confident enough to go out and emigrate in huge numbers across our world, yet now you are boo-hooing because of a few foreigners coming here? You are a disgrace to the British Nation, British People and British Culture. You are an embarrassment to us all.

draegor
29 June 2008 at 15:27

Dear gnuneo,

I see that you are determined to just repeat ad hominem attacks,and the same old arguments.You are smearing people who are turning to the BNP as weak,losers,skin colour freaks,genocidalists.

These are your own intellectual preoccupations,and it is wrong to project them on to the decent people of this Country who have voted for a legitimate political party.

It seems that you agree with the equality czar (brazen hypocracy?) Trevor Phillips that "the BNP should be treated as less than human"?

No one believe`s that immigrants make up only 6% of the population.

Pencils
29 June 2008 at 17:06

Gnuneo - I appreciate where you're coming from (as they say) re the tabloid hate campaign against immigrants, but you miss the point. Draegor is dead right; it's a sham. Their aim is not to stop immigration, but to 'divide the working class' - a Trotskyite phrase that trips easily off the tongue, but true.. The ruling class WANT immigrants to undermine organised labour, the source of all rights and benefits in our society - the capitalists have never given anything from the goodness of their hearts, much less from patriotism. The usual 'leftist' answer is to 'organise the immigrants'. What for? To fight the bosses? When did the 'trade union movement' last seriously fight for anything? It' a sick joke to describe our yellow scab collaborationist TU bureaucracies as a 'labour movement'. How much more likely are they to fight, when there are ten guys (or gals) queueing up to do every job at half the price? Get real!

It used to be that the bare minimum for qualifying as a leftist was to support organised labour; now, it seems, that the absolute essential to be accepted by the self-styled left is unswerving support for an unlimited supply of scab labour. In fact, all these 57 varieties of Trotskyite Trotskyists and pseudo-communist Trotskyites (although the Morning Star is slightly better) are not leftists at all - they do not represent the millions that have left the Labour Party or left the trade unions, or the millions (including the BNP) that turned out against the criminal invasion of Iraq. The BNP (in its stated aims anyway) is way to the LEFT of all these groups.

However, the BNP has a tradition of hostility to the unions. There may be some merit in that, given the actualities of the trade unions, but I can't remember their position currently. Care to fill us in, Draegor? What is your attitude to the '85 miner's strike, the last time the workers really fought (and got stabbed in the back by the 'labour movement')? And what is your current position on the role of the unions under a BNP government.

draegor
29 June 2008 at 17:50

Dear Pencils,

Your description of the current state of unionism is 100% accurate and to the point.The self-styled left have indeed betrayed the principles of their own philosophy of improving conditions for the workers,by unreservedly supporting mass immigration,which can only be to the detriment of said conditions.

The BNP`s stance is that the current,and past leadership of the unions have been subverted by the same ideologues intent on National self-destruction as we find in the political kleptocracy.

For this reason,the BNP set up it`s own union called SOLIDARITY.Membership is open to all,and costs just five pounds a month.It looks after the interests of the workers the way the unions used to do many years ago.

People do not have to be members of the BNP, and will not have contributions syphoned off to the BNP,a stark contrast to the fraudulant practice(now being challenged)of the unions putting money at the disposal of the Leadership of the ZanuNuLab party without people`s consent.

The BNP want nothing but the best for the British workers,and the British people.

draegor
29 June 2008 at 18:36

Anyone interested in joining a genuine trade union is invited to visit this website:

www.solidaritytradeunion.net

gnuneo
29 June 2008 at 19:01

draegor: have you actually read the comments @ the top of this page? They quite clearly lay out for all to see that the BNP is primarily racist - and wriggle on the hook as much as you want, the simple fact is that racism IS a sign of degeneracy, of weakness, of deep-seated feelings of inadequacy.

racism exists in all societies, across all strata, but it is very rarely held by people who are confident in themselves, unless they see it as a tool to manipulate others with weaker minds to give them power.

people who use hatred of others, based upon physical charcteristics they can do nothing about, are not people who should EVER get near political power. This is not ad hominem, this is straight, simple, factual common sense.

"No one believe`s that immigrants make up only 6% of the population."

well, from one perspective, when you add in the vikings, french, saxons, jutes etc, then yes, - clearly 'immigrants' make up more than just 6%

or perhaps you mean people who are not white living in the UK, born here or not, then yes again there are more than 6%.

or perhaps you are mixing up immigrants with migrants, the number of people who come here to work for a few years, and then go back to their home country - or continue travelling. Yes, those evil aussies, kiwis, poles and finns etc who desire to experience English life, and work whilst they're doing it.

add them in, and yes, you might indeed get more than 6%.

but if you are actually looking at *immigration*, those who move here permanently, settle and maybe have British-born children, then it is actually possible that 6% is a bit high.

but that is probably a distinction you don't care about, after all wogs, blacks and pakis are just wogs, blacks and pakis right, british born or not? And so much easier for you to point the finger at those coming from poland, rather than the much quieter numbers *leaving* these shores, after being exploited by exactly the same people who exploit us.

"It seems that you agree with the equality czar (brazen hypocracy?) Trevor Phillips that "the BNP should be treated as less than human"?"

trevor phillips is an idjit for saying that - but then you would exile him - merely because he is not white. Somehow, i see the problem being started upon your side of the equation here.

and btw - racists ARE less than human, for they deny the humanity of others. A healthy, full human being can accept others as they are, whatever sexuality, religion, gender, colour or nationality they are.

i have an afro-celt friend, is he less English than me? I have lesbian friends, are they less English than me? As for the notion that christianity is somehow 'British' - what a pile of stinking horse-shit. Christians, jews, hindus, moslems, pagans, jedi, buddhists, taoists - all of these are 'British', and none of them.

One Nation, One Creed, One Colour, One God, One Language, One Accent, One Leader -One Deranged Political Philosophy.

thats YOU, that is. And yes, that IS an intended ad hominem.

you treat others as less-than-human, and then you turn around and start whining when its done back to you -

pencils: as long as there are owners, and others who work for them, there will be struggle. The solution is to move to a capitalist society where ALL own the companies they work in, where people are not being exploited to make others wealthy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corp...

unions are little more than a stop-gap to prevent even higher rates of exploitation - but have become exploiters themselves, happy with the System, as it ensures their own comfortable nests, vague bleatings about 'but after the revolution...' to appease the more militant union members, whilst doing jack shit to actually move our societies forward.

there would be no problem with immigration driving down wages, if the wages were set by the workers themselves, not some fat fucker livin'-it-large on the backs of others hard work, can you see the essential difference in this equation?

and is it not EXTRAORDINARY how rarely this is pointed out in the media? Gee, i wonder why murdock and his ilk wouldn't want normal Briton's to start thinking about owning the companies they work in... which btw, if it sounds pie-in-the-sky, is actually part of the Social Chapter of the EU - guess what, you know the UK Govt demanded some opt-outs, well have a guess what one of them was?

oooh, you win a lolipop!

immigration is only a problem because of the exploitative nature of our economy, although of course there will always be friction where people from different cultures meet. But the simple fact of the matter is, some poor immigrant working @ minimum wage doing the shitty jobs, has more in common with the 20th generation Brit next door doing the same work, than either have with some tosser in a palatial mansion in the cotswalds, living off the hard work of 100s of people in 'their' company - just because they inherited the shares.

it is not immigrants that are sucking this country dry, nor is it the unemployed, or disabled, or single-mums, or gays, or any other of the normal targets of the Nazi-press - it is the people who are taking billions out of our economy, and sticking it into tax-havens.

and their paid-up lackies in parliament.

Pencils
29 June 2008 at 19:46

" unions are little more than a stop-gap to prevent even higher rates of exploitation - but have become exploiters themselves, happy with the System, as it ensures their own comfortable nests, vague bleatings about 'but after the revolution...' to appease the more militant union members, whilst doing jack shit to actually move our societies forward. " Gnuneo

Fine, we're agreed on that, but don't you think the following is just a tad patronising:

"there would be no problem with immigration driving down wages, if the wages were set by the workers themselves, not some fat fucker livin'-it-large on the backs of others hard work, can you see the essential difference in this equation? "

Fine, everything will be hunky dory when we all learn to love each other and get along; then perfect social equality and justice will spontaneously spring up all over the world. Alternatively, how do you see us arriving at this situation you describe? Vote for the Socialist Workers Party? Well, maybe they'll get their shit together in another 100 years or so. In the meantime, how do you see us resisting the capitalist assault on our living standards and the NHS? Excuse me for being patronising in return, but the wages ARE at present set by the workers themselves, but only so far as they are prepared and able to fight to pressure the fatcats living in mansions in the Cotswolds. And the more migrant workers there are, the less the permanent workforce is able to fight. At the moment the government is cutting back on workplace inspectors, i.e. enforcement of safety standards and the minimum wage; how do you envisage getting more inspectors? A new Warwick agreement? And when will these inspectors be in place, and what will we do in the meantime?

You sound like a Trot to me, Gnuneo, and, like most of your ilk,( ignoring the emotionally manipulative tearjerker anti-racist stuff) I suspect that you think the UK workforce should be content to settle for the minimum wage(not a living wage), or less, out of solidarity with the 'disadvantaged of the world'. Sorry, but charity begins at home; if you destroy what little power the people have gained here, then you are not going to export justice, but rather import injustice, and increase its hold everywhere. Or, in a nutshell, take a hike!

Riaz Ahmad
29 June 2008 at 19:56

It is not only the rise of BNP in UK, the same goes for Europe. Look at Italy, neo-fasist government and policies. Labour got in bed with business and ignored its core power base. Professional politicians are far removed from their grass roots, BNP is listening and responding to the aspirations and the racist mindset of the underclass amongst the working class. It is wrong to label the working class as racist, overwhelming majority are nice and decent people.

draegor
29 June 2008 at 21:18

Dear pencils,

You ask me if I have read all the previous posts.I have indeed,and now I know who is likely to provide real debating points,and who will regurgitate despicable and formulaic smears.

It is obvious that you despise the BNP and everything it stands for,because you have told us how many times?

This forum is supposed to be about debating the reasons for the rise of the BNP i.e the Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship and it`s genuflection to the New World Order`s plan for Global enslavement.

Dear Riaz Ahmad,

The BNP is not racist,it is nationalist i.e it will protect the interests of all the British people EQUALLY with no favouritism for certain minorities purely because they are minorities.As to the racist mindset of the working class,I would suggest that it is a direct result of the anti-British racism shown to them by the Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship and the blatant political messages in the MSM,.Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

draegor
29 June 2008 at 21:20

Dear pencils,

I`m so sorry.I accidentally put your name to the above post that was supposed to be addressed to our splendid friend gnuneo.

draegor
29 June 2008 at 21:31

Dear Riaz Ahmad,

I meant to say "supposed racist attitude amongst the underclass"( and how were they created?)"

Pencils
30 June 2008 at 03:50

I'm with you there, Draegor - " Racist mindset of the underclass" ! 'Underclass' being a code-word for the poor - poor because they're stupid or degenerate and racist because they're envious of foreigners taking the cleaning jobs they're too drunk or drugged up to do, I suppose. Typical patronising leftie. Never mind, the problem can be solved by taking the vote away from the underclass.

draegor
30 June 2008 at 06:07

Dear Pencils,

It pleases me no end that you`ve seen right through gnunueo and his gang and their spurious insults.I can`t believe he can get away with mentioning racial terms such as "wogs"(albeit in the context of putting the words in my mouth!) without his post being deleted,considering the posts that you and I contributed that didn`t last too long.

I am new to the New Statesman forums,and started posting on this thread without reading the others.Now that I`ve had a look at the other threads, I feel that I`m in a much better postion to gauge the intellectual proclivities of some of these rabid posters.

It seems that their main tactic is to wear their opponents out with futile insult-rallies that waste precious column inches and must deter serious readers from bothering to read the whole page as a lot of it is made up of personal invective with a dearth of factual information.

I can imagine how these spoiling tactics might be succesfull in closing down some of the debate,but it does not bode well for the image of the NewStatesman,which I always regarded as an upmarket type publication(Dear Editior,please don`t misunderstand the tenor of my remarks!)

I`m also very glad you spotted Riaz Ahmad`s attempt to isolate the "underclass" from the rest of society.

It seemed to me that Mr Ahmad was trying to imply that the BNP`s message only really appeals to this underclass/workingclass.Nothing could be further from the truth,as a visit to the BNP`s website would quickly reveal.

The news team who create the articles, and the standard of political discussion on the website, are first class and the complete opposite of the media stereotype of the BNP.

fairplay
30 June 2008 at 07:36

birds of a feather flock together

sad but true throughout most walks of life. human nature. try telling the daughters of jewish or muslim girls who want to marry outside their faith. see what reaction their parents give. there is bigotry and racism everywhere. however, the bnp i believe to be barking mad, but if we had a mainstream political party who put the will of the people first instead of the bankers and zionists, we would find there would be more of the bnp's policies adopted, albeit slightly watered down.

it is time for the british people of all races and creeds to say enough is enough. our infrastructure, health service, armed forces etc are crumbling before our eyes. it wont be long till we are paying extortionate insurance policies for our health like they do in america. we sinply cannot cope any more. do the maths. we are stretched now. were we as stretched 5 years ago?

Jane Greene
30 June 2008 at 09:40

It does amuse me when people try to sound clever by using big words when they cannot even spell!

draegor
30 June 2008 at 14:36

Dear Jane Greene,

I find it much more amusing when some people,bereft of arguments,snipe at contributors over small mistakes in spelling.Please, don`t keep us in suspense Jane Greene.What is your position on the rise of the BNP?

Will it make you sound clever?

MadBadger
30 June 2008 at 18:17

So...draegor. Please post some examples of how immigrants are favoured over white British people. I'm particularly interested in the benefits system, if that helps you.

draegor
30 June 2008 at 21:39

Dear Madbadger,

I would suggest the non-political optimum poulation trust website, or the BNP website,to give you the statistics on immigration.They speak for themselves.The Home Office should also have details on ethnic minority unemployment and housing benefit take-up(If they don`t, why is that?)

From off the top of my head, I think I recall that something like 40%-60% of bangladeshi,black caribbean,black African,somalians are unemployed and may or may not require social housing/benefits(obviously different percentages for each group).

draegor
30 June 2008 at 21:45

Dear Madbadger,

I would also suggest the non-ploitical MigrationWatch website.Happy reading.

MadBadger
30 June 2008 at 22:03

Not the answer to the question I asked. Try again...

draegor
30 June 2008 at 22:52

Dear Mad Badger,

I wonder why.

draegor
30 June 2008 at 22:55

Dear MadBadger,

Do you approve of fractional reserve banking?

Pencils
01 July 2008 at 04:01

" From off the top of my head, I think I recall that something like 40%-60% of bangladeshi,black caribbean,black African,somalians are unemployed and may or may not require social housing/benefits(obviously different percentages for each group)."

If so, then they have most to lose from the ruling class's importation of migrant workers.. The BNP should make more effort to appeal to these sections of the population, rather than alienating them.

I have mixed feelings about Migration Watch. I appreciate that they get some publicity for the contrary view re immigration, but some of their leaders have very shady backgrounds. I've seen a report (years ago, and lost, unfortunately,) that linked that guy Greene with the Iran contra business, and the rest of them had too much involvement with Thatcherism for me to believe that they seriously have the interest of British workers at heart.

Pencils
01 July 2008 at 04:18

' Fractional Reserve Banking' is the heart of the matter, and why Ron Paul is/ was the best hope for the USA. See the recent book by Ellen Hodgson Brown, 'Web of Debt: the Shocking Truth about our Money System and how we can break free', a very authoritative, readable and up-to-date look at our criminal banking/money system.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that the BNP are now accepting funding from interests that have traditionally been, rightly or wrongly ( rightly, in my estimation), very central to the fractional reserve scam. If so, then this would seem to fit the BNP into a pattern with other European right groups, who have re-focused their sights on Islam as the enemy, and suddenly found that the press is less hostile, and started to prosper a bit. Some suggest that these groups, for material gain, and like most of our self-styled 'left' sects, now actually serve a different master.

I wonder if the above is euphemistic enough to pass the censor.

draegor
01 July 2008 at 04:41

Dear Pencils,

The BNP are indeed asking for,and getting some support from the 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.Even the MSM is now having to admit that immigration is a damaging policy which squeezes all workers in this country,and that previous immigrants feel just as betrayed as the whites.

Your point about MigrationWatch having previous conservatives in it`s ranks is valid,but it should`nt blind you to their information.The conservatives are very much pro-immigration along with the liberal democrats.The greens are hypocritically completely silent on the biggest threat to the environment i.e overpopulation.

This is why no matter what your Worldview,or your ethnicity, voting BNP is the only way to stop this evil NWO policy.

draegor
01 July 2008 at 05:04

Dear Pencils,

I have heard rumours to that effect,and indeed,the BNP are not as focused on the "fractional reserve enthusiasts"

as they used to be in years past.I can only assume(hope) this is for tactical reasons(although the Zionists still throw their weight behind the anti-BNP compaign).It has caused some dissent.Having said that,you don`t always get what you pay for in politics.The criticism of the Islamists would have happened regardless of all other factors simply because of their increased vocalism, and government protection(the complete opposite of majority public perception!)

Our leaders in whatever party we are in, must always be scrutinised for any sign of subversion.Disunity is the biggest problem the British people face,anything else can be overcome.

draegor
01 July 2008 at 05:16

Dear Pencils,

I would also add that the BNP are vicously hostile to the NWO and the artificial finance economy.Make of that what you will.

MadBadger
01 July 2008 at 05:53

draegor...I don't know why you said "I wonder why". Basically I asked you a question and you did not answer it, just went on and posted about migration figures which is not what I asked you about. This seems par for the course as you've not answered any of the points I've previously specifically raised either.

draegor
01 July 2008 at 06:17

Dear MadBadger,

You are correct,immigrants do not abuse the welfare system or occupy much needed social housing,I must be a lying racist for suggesting such a thing.White people,far from being discriminated against in such matters,are actually oppressing immigrants to such an extent that they travel across many safe countries to get to this socialist worker`s paradise.

draegor
01 July 2008 at 06:22

Dear MadBadger,

Did I not mention benefits in my 30/6/8 21:39 post?

MadBadger
01 July 2008 at 06:46

If by abuse the welfare system you mean make a legitimate claim and receive benefit of course immigants do. If by abuse you commit fraud then as someone who works in the benefit system and has done for nearly 23 years I can tell you that they are no worse than your beloved white British population, who in fact, are in some ways worse when it comes to committing fraud. As for housing I get to see who gets social housing and again it is not as you like to portray it. Still that wouldn't suit your racist agenda, would it? If you are going to post such comments try to offer some proof instead of rumour and innuendo.

DarylS
01 July 2008 at 15:24

The problem with the welfare system is not immigrants. It's fat lazy white-trash baby-making machines, who just don't try hard enough. You people are hostile to anything you don't know or understand and unfortunately that includes more or less everything because probably never read anything more challenging than Daily Mail headlines.

Pencils
01 July 2008 at 19:55

'white trash' ? A rather loaded term don't you think? Like 'trailer trash' it's a fashionable term of contempt for those who haven't got well paid, secure jobs. If such people are a problem, how would YOU solve it? Put them in work-houses, or 'dole camps'( a notion that has been trotted out recently), if they think they're too good to live 10 to a room and work three jobs just to eat - with no hope of bettering themselves whatever, incidentally. Then, if the public sector workers (about the only unionised ones now) haven't the balls to fight, then at least they can have a laugh at the fate of the white-trash nazi scum.

Go on, say it! Who gives a toss for the white trash? They're all nazis anyway! That's the 'left' for you.

MadBadger
01 July 2008 at 20:26

Pencils...I don't think all "white trash" are nazis. I do think that the BNP stoke up their envy of the "white trash" to its own ends. "I think I've got less than... (insert scapegoat) and I deserve more". We have free health care, free education...the sort of things people in other, less prosperous countries would give their eye teeth for. And what do a significant portion of "our" people do? Fail at school and then go onto benefit. Have a baby...go onto benefit. I see it everyday. It's a waste. I'm sick of it.

draegor
01 July 2008 at 22:39

Dear Daryls and MadBadger,

If our people fail,it`s because they`ve had to fight alone against the communist traitors such as yourselves(don`t even insult us with"actually we`re right-wing!")who do everything in their power(including MSM propaganda,and the deliberate destruction of education) to make that happen.They also have to deal with an abysmal work situation caused by hordes of NWO sanctioned immigrants/invaders.

Our people are waking up from this nightmare,and the only strategy you have left is to call them names.

You`re fractional reserve banker friends are being openly ridiculed and threatened.Their nukes won`t save them,no matter how many they kill.

They are you`re best friends aren`t they Madbadger and Daryl?

Just wait untill the Great British Public find out about the 7/7 false flag attacks.It will be goodnight cosy Lib/Lab/Con dictatorship then,and not a moment too soon.Read it and weep.

MadBadger
01 July 2008 at 23:02

draegor...I think you are quite mad and / or paranoid. Go to see your doctor, soon.

Pencils
02 July 2008 at 09:57

Well, there's a lot to be mad and paranoid about. Most of our nation are just sleep-walking to destruction.

Pierre
02 July 2008 at 13:55

If the politicians of the old line parties were doing their jobs with reasonable intelligence there would be no room/need for new parties that are ready to represent the voters.

disilliousioned
02 July 2008 at 22:59

my mums anglo-indian my dads burmese iam 100% english and proud the only party i would vote is bnp but i wont racism does cut both ways blaming whites for everything is what is really damaging this country .LABOUR get a grip and stop screwing about and start listening to the people of this beautiful green and pleasant land