Helping Elisabeth Fritzl

221 comments from readers

PlanetStarbucks
30 April 2008 at 14:45

While this case is horrific it does strike me as a story for middle class consumption allowing the feelings of horror and despair associated with this case to enter their own emotionally vacant lives. As a female member of my family suffered domestic abuse whilst I was young I have never understood the fascination with such cases. The reality of such events is too much for me to relate to as many seem to enjoy doing. I can only assume (an assumption that has grown stronger over the years) that the relative calm and safety of middle class life leads to a fetishism developing with the dark underbelly of society. This can be seen in any woman’s weekly at supermarket checkouts that deal exclusively with surreal stories of horror to the newspapers that revel in the degradation of human life in various conflict zones. Just as Natasha Kampusch was forgotten about as her horror story became complete, it will not be long until the horrors of Elizabeth Fritzl will fade in memory as people seek a new tale to sate their fetishism.

georgii
30 April 2008 at 14:59

i think what this man is horific and he has ruined so many lives with his actions. he descusts me

Jane Greene
30 April 2008 at 15:03

Planet Starbucks I think you are right about the rubber necking aspect of human nature but nevertheless I think it's important to think about the capacity of people to be cruel to each other. This is a truly horrific story - beyond the imagination of most of us thankfully - but at least this article is looking at the recovery process and in an insightful way.

PlanetStarbucks
30 April 2008 at 15:15

@Jane Greene,

Your right, this is the dilemma. We need to know about these horrors but for a good majority of people (in my opinion) this story will serve no other purpose than to sate their fascination with the perverse. So we are left with this problem of having to know about these events but these events then become symbolic and take on whatever meaning we want. Already commentators have blasted Austrian decadence and individualism for allowing such an event to occur. As one commentator responded, we have Fred West to contend with if we use this argument.

This horror is just that: an unspeakable horror that thankfully is nothing more than a story to everybody but those involved. Perhaps we would be wise to focus on our own lives instead of the lives of others; I suspect many of those who could have discovered this horror were too busy finding fetish in other dark tales to see the one around them.

Jelani14
30 April 2008 at 15:52

this guy is really sick! He is over the top man. Why would in the heck would he do that to his own daughter. What kind of stuff is that. He should be in jail for Life.

Jelani14
30 April 2008 at 15:57

This is the most sickest person ever. Rapping your on child like that. Why would he do that to his on child and grandchildren. This is very horrible. And I hope he never sees his grandchildren again. And fifteen years. You people in the state have lost your minds. This is crazy and over the top.

margot.codrington
30 April 2008 at 21:52

Planet Starbucks, I cannot understand why you think middle-class lives are emotionally vacant, calm or safe. Poor Elisabeth Fritzl could probably be described as middle class; but the darkness and violence and horror that can be contained within a so-called 'normal' family is what fascinates and appals people so much in this story. Home is supposed to be a safe place; but the 'fear' of a home that is not a home, or not a shelter as it should be, I would suggest has an archetypal resonance within human psyches: think of the dark fairytales of Grimm (written not so far from the place where this terrible act was perpetrated, ironically). Think Hansel and Gretel and Little Red Riding Hood (a wolf posing as a grandmother) and so on and so on. I think it is frankly mistaken, though, by implication, to suggest that these things only go on in working class homes, or that somehow, if bombs are not dropping on you, you must be perfectly happy. Human psychology is a little more complicated than that.

Supporter
01 May 2008 at 05:03

hi

Sunday
01 May 2008 at 08:25

Dear PlanetStarbucks - I agree with aspects of your comments but also support margot.codrington in her suggestion of an archetypal nerve that has been struck here. While your suggestion that the middle-class are bereft of suffering is preposterous, this story has shocked us into taking notice, as only through 'keeping to ourselves' as you advocate was Elisabeth offered no hope of freedom. While I don't for a moment support a ghoulish fascination with other people's suffering, I do believe there is a symbolism in that which is trapped and denied below the surface, that strikes a chord to the collective.

PlanetStarbucks
01 May 2008 at 09:41

@margot.codrington & Sunday,

I think you have misunderstood me. I do not claim anything about what Elizabeth has gone through only about the media representation to the rest of the world. My only claim is that this provides a perverse fetish for many whose lives are monotonous and safe. I never claimed that this could only happen in a working class home (especially seeing at it is fairly clear the Fritzl family was middle class), these sorts of atrocity can happen in any socioeconomic sphere.

While one can argue it strikes a chord with the collective, I ask you in that case why every rape, senseless murder and bombing does not provoke a similar outrage. This horror is fantastical in its construction; we fantasize on its story-like properties. Yet with something as close to home as rape we ignore it, deny its existence to some extent and try to imagine it can not happen to us. Why deny this aspect of life while showing such fetish for such an atrocious but unique event? This case is clear cut; the girl was innocent and her father a monster. Other cases do not show such moral clarity and therefore cannot provoke the same visceral reaction. In our world of moral absolutism we need stories like this to remind us that we are good and they are evil. This story gives the reader the moral superiority that they seek, that they are not the monster and thankfully not the victim. The victim part also raises moral superiority as in the same way that the victim often feels guilty for letting this happen to them many people also see the victim as someone that could not be them. This is because we all believe in these situations we’d escape, do anything to break free when outside of the realms of Hollywood there is often nothing anyone can do. However to believe this is to damage the ego therefore the victim is portrayed at least on a subconscious level as guilty herself in the eyes of others.

antileft
01 May 2008 at 15:25

"While this case is horrific it does strike me as a story for middle class consumption allowing the feelings of horror and despair associated with this case to enter their own emotionally vacant lives."

What classist, stereotyping crap. Only a real brainless idiot could have such issues with such a huge and diverse chunk of the population.

PlanetStarbucks
01 May 2008 at 16:43

Antileft do you ever actually try to refute arguements based on rationale and logic or can you only manage ad hominem and straw man counters?

margot.codrington
01 May 2008 at 20:37

I'm sorry PlanetStarbucks but you're having a laugh with your clumsy use of the English language and cod psychology - ad hominem and straw man counters indeed! Now I know you can't be serious. And if you are: well I'm afraid your arguments are neither rational or logical. At least antileft says it as it is. I commend him/her.

kim52
01 May 2008 at 21:56

OK people, these kind of men exsist, professional angelic men, who care for their children while raping them mentally and physically. I lived it-----control, beatings, rape, marching children soliders...... 1968-1973 Decatur, Illinois catholic school kids, management capipillar dad, loads of torment and rape!!!! They exsist.

Sweetstart
02 May 2008 at 00:58

PlanetStarbucks

I understand your comments about the fetish fascination the expectators might have with this story, but you also stated that you were a victim of abuse, maybe there is some sort of remorse from your part, over the fact that your history didnt make it to the public, therefore nobody new about your suffering.

Sunday
02 May 2008 at 01:17

Dear PlanetStarbucks,

Thank you for clarifying your position. I admit, I have been gripped by this story & whether or not my life is safe and vacant I have been self scrutinizing as to why the Fritzl story has demanded so much of my attention. I can relate to your ideas of moral polarity/ good and evil that exist in the human experience and how these elements are harshly illuminated in cases such as these. Moreso, I have an empathy (as I'm sure we all share), perhaps it is because I am the same age as Elisabeth and can't stop thinking about the life that I have lead since I was 18 and just how much of a life that has been robbed from her. I marvel at her will to survive as I can assure you I would have found a way to kill myself if I was her. But most of all there is the horrific reality that no matter what evil this woman was subjected to, that it was happening right below the lives of seemingly 'normal' family life. I wish I didn't know about it, but there is also some guilt in that wish as it is the 'not wanting to know' about such horrors that has somehow contributed to a crime like this being able to continue. It begs for consciousness. It asks that we shine the light on the unthinkable, and while I agree that the media feeds off fantastical stories, there is somehow something different about this one. I am still not clear, just very upset by this extreme example of helplessness and domination. I really don't understand why I am so affected. I am not wanting to minimize the experiences of anyone who has suffered at the hand of an abusive, more powerful person, but there is something so chilling about the extent of time, the extent of incarceration and the extent to which this man abused without question.

Rithvi
02 May 2008 at 06:50

PlanetStarbucks is the example of what the author is talking about. Someone abused herself sexually tends to expect everyone else to behave that way. This woman has forgotten the concept of human empathy. Not all of us are cruel and perverse. We all feel the pain and are disgusted and angry with what the suffering this woman had to go through. To suggest some sort of morbid curiosity is very offensive to us. One does not need to be sexually abused to understand suffering.

Rithvi
02 May 2008 at 06:54

This is why you Europeans are wrong about the death penalty. This man must be hung until dead, or in Utah executed by the firing squad.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 10:22

@Rithvi, Sweetstart

Let me clarify that I am speaking about a female relation and not myself in regards to the domestic abuse I mention in my first post. I grew up seeing the bruises, the police and the constant phone calls from her to other family members. This has not affected me as such in the fact that I do not feel any visceral emotion due to this as I was young and only an observer. What it did do for me is put a lot of life into perspective from a young age. I do not claim at any point that someone must suffer to understand other suffering but I do contend that the majority of people I know who have led relatively opulent lives do relish stories like this as if they give their own lives inherent meaning.

@Sunday,

Thank you for your response. I can understand your own fascination with the case if you can relate to Elizabeth and it sounds like you have at least thought about why you find fascination with this case. This fascination in your case is analogous to that of the fascination with the Holocaust, specifically the fact that concentration camps are tourist hotspots in the modern era. People visit the camps and speak about the Holocaust as if they were actually there; this aberration of reality is what sickens me. Conversely, if we got rid of the camps and left it to history are we not denying the dark underside of humanity? This problem is irresolvable so we are left with a situation where we must recognise what has happened but by doing so many people find fetish in it. It is only by trying to understand our reasoning behind such emotional responses that we can hope to understand humanity and ourselves.

@margot.codrington

A good piece of ad hominem there. As I said to antileft if you cannot deconstruct my argument and refute its claims then you have nothing to say, unless you’d like to make an original point?

caledonia
02 May 2008 at 13:59

PlanetStarbucks- Whilst i agree with the points you are making i do the think the underlying suggestion that all people expressing any kind of interest or curiosity in this type of case are ghouls is offensive.

I come from a back ground of parental abuse (although i was not abused to the extent of my older siblings as the authorities had stepped in) and i find

myself drawn to read and learn about these types of cases (especially involving parents) as a way to try

to understand human nature at it's very worst.

I often wonder if these people are damaged by their own experiences or a more bitter pill to swallow are they just the abhorrent monsters they are by birth.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 15:12

@antileft

No, the middle class by definition isn't as diverse as "white". The middle class is defined by fairly clear socioeconomic parameters and although these parameters have become more porous with the dissolution of domestic heavy industry and the rise in class mobility there is still a core of middle class traits that one can identify. High disposable income, well educated (often privately educated or having been subject to tuition), usually a stable family background (this is meant in no irony considering the case); these are all good markers for identifying the middle class and ‘middle class values’.

You also seem unable to put together any rational argument without resorting to ad hominem, or do you expect writing *sigh* in your reply is somehow going to persuade people that my arguments are invalid because you added a derogatory and superfluous commentary?

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 15:14

Well that comment makes no sense now that the memory hole has been opened...

Tracy
02 May 2008 at 15:19

Never in my life have posts such as PlanetStarbucks incensed me.

1- The man was a sociopath. We are not drawn to the story because we find intrest in HIM, rather we are feeling disgust and hatred toward him.

2- The facination is that it's amazing how low we humans can go, how horrible we can treat our fellow man.

3- If eveyone "focused on our own lives" as you suggested, Elisabeth would still be in the dungeon.

Finally, rather than address your "argument" (or it is your "opinoin" as you stated) your megalomaniac (grandiose dlusion) tendencies are prevalent in practicly every word of your posts. You do your best to belittle the human race, middle class, and women in general.

For goodness sakes man, this is a horrific newstory. I will read it, feel anger toward him, pity and passion for her (and the children), use the information to in some way improve my humanity, and i will get on with my life. Just as I would had the article been about my Stocks rising of falling. It is news of our world, not my fetish.

I would suggest to anyone wishing to comment on PlanetStarbucks to not feed into it. Comment only about the story at hand, not about this person wishing to make themselves feel superior.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 15:31

My word, you did mean that middle class people have "emotionally vacant lives"!!! Well, that's some stereotyping there! It's like calling working class people "bitter". But then, at least obama apologised.

So, to clarify, people with "High disposable income, well educated (often privately educated or having been subject to tuition), usually a stable family background"

have emotionally vacant lives?! It seems strange, because I wouldve thought it was the opposite. Surely, those things would bring very nice lives, wouldnt they??

What a lovely piece of stereotyping. Here's a question for you. How would you describe the emotional lives of working class people? Are they more emotionally satisfying? And if so, why would that be?

Homo Sapiens
02 May 2008 at 15:53

Rithvi -

I disagree completely with your comments about the death penalty. Apart fromall the many reasons which would be off topic here, consider the likely effect on the victim in this case, if she became the unwilling cause of the death of her father, and the only human contact she had had for her entire adult life.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 15:56

@Tracey,

1. We hate this man for what he is, but by doing so we take away his humanity. By denying him his very essence we destroy our reason for hating him in the first place. You look at this man and show complete hatred towards him (and it seems now by proxy me). By dehumanising this man’s crimes we make excuses for the human condition that let this happen. Or perhaps you care to contend that he is biologically different from everyone else?

2. A fascination that does not occur for those who have been through the suffering. How many war veterans do you see who revel in stories of soldiers being killed and of the general horror of war? Virtually none. Their experience of the horrors of war mean they do not wish to see the gory details shown fit for consumption. Why then do you require the knowledge of the horrors in this Austrian cellar?

3. Perhaps you need to get your facts straight. Elizabeth was released by her father, who I assume knew the game was up.

Can you give me some basis for my grand delusions? If you could also inform me of how knowing about this case changes your view on the world in any tangible way I would much appreciate it. You sound very much like the stereotypical middle class mother who ostentatiously votes Labour but sends your children to public school. If you are so outraged at the true common injustices in society then campaign for women’s rights in your area; raise money for beaten or raped women. These are the crimes that happen every minute of every day. What happened to Elizabeth is irreprehensible. By focusing on her plight though we disassociate ourselves with the true crimes that happen all around us. Let me ask you this. If we lived in a world where everyone knew their neighbour and we looked after beaten and raped women, even worked positively to prevent it in the first place, would this atrocity have been more or less likely to occur?

@antileft,

No, I would say the lives of working class people are to some extent depressing as the struggle to survive and lead a half-decent life takes precedent over deciding how to spend your money. At least the working class still has a sense of community though. There can be a certain pride in being at the bottom of the pile with no realistic way out; at least every struggle is genuine.

Let's juxtapose this with the middle class life. I assume your middle class antileft so can you explain to me what hardship you have suffered in your life? It is this lack of hardship, this existence without existing, that I believe leads to the macabre fascination with events such as this.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:05

"There can be a certain pride in being at the bottom of the pile with no realistic way out; at least every struggle is genuine.

Let's juxtapose this with the middle class life. I assume your middle class antileft so can you explain to me what hardship you have suffered in your life? It is this lack of hardship, this existence without existing, that I believe leads to the macabre fascination with events such as this"

Oooh I see. So, theyre a real nobel socio-economic grouping, then, the working classes eh? And of course, as a member of the working class, youre also, conveniently, better than me according to your formula.

Well, what hardships have I suffered... I suppose youre right, my life is pretty peachy. I spend most of my time travelling in hot countries with the girlfriend, paying for it by working online (I can do that with my wonderful education that you talked about). Living in cheap countries, Ill soon be able to buy a house straight out without a mortguage, which I plan to fill with, ahem, your socio-economic group. Going to thailand soon. We plan to spend a good 6 months on beaches, taking it easy. I might even learn how to play the bongos. I suppose that makes me emotionally vacant, and as a sad little poorper living in England, I suppose that makes you nobel... But then, I know which Id prefer.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:11

@antileft,

Ad homenium.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:12

@antileft

My apologies. Ad hominem. I wouldn't want to offend you with my poor spelling.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:17

One second- you asked me about which class I was from, and if Ive suffered hardships! You cant accuse me of ad hominem arguments when I then tell you about my class and lack of hardships! Oh planet starbucks, not the brightest, are ya? I wonder if that also fits into your working class stereotype.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:29

"... and as a sad little poorper living in England, I suppose that makes you nobel... ."

"Oh planet starbucks, not the brightest, are ya? I wonder if that also fits into your working class stereotype."

Ad hominem.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:35

that's it, keep using that new phrase you learnt. It's great to practice it, isnt it? It makes you sound like your educated middle class stereotype. Let me add one, one sec, I bet I can find it... Yes here we go.

"You sound very much like the stereotypical middle class mother who ostentatiously votes Labour but sends your children to public school."

Ad hominem.

Here's another useful word to use next time you want to sound big and clever:

Hypocrite.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:40

@antileft,

Now you've brought Tu quoque into play. Poor example of my own purported Ad hominem by the way, I make clear that in my opinion she was following a stereotype. This is markedly different from calling myself a sad little poorper (sic).

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:44

@antileft,

I would also suggest that your penchant for writing running commentaries is worrying as it suggests that you perceive yourself as some grandeur entity that must write down every nuance of thought as to allow admiration of its brilliance.

Passer By
02 May 2008 at 16:49

PlanetStarbucks, aren't you yourself fascinated with the case and in a way are exploiting it as an "illustration" to your pompous point about "middle-class (?) psychology"? Just 'cause you have witnessed domestic abuse doesn't make you an expert of how people should and should not react to such incidents. Moreover, you can't read people's minds, what makes you so damn sure they are merely "sating their fetish"?

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:54

No, it wasnt a poor example at all. Look at it again:

"You sound very much like the stereotypical middle class mother who ostentatiously votes Labour but sends your children to public school."

You got personal! Using "you sound like" or "youre following" instead of "you are" doesnt get you off the hook! This is a textbook example of ad hominem. You were caught out! Quit trying to be more clever than you are! Hypocrite.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:56

"I would also suggest that your penchant for writing running commentaries is worrying as it suggests that you perceive yourself as some grandeur entity that must write down every nuance of thought as to allow admiration of its brilliance."

ad hominem

hypocrite. x2. Youve posted far more than me. Hypocrite.

Sweetstart
02 May 2008 at 16:58

Personally, I avoid reading morbid sensationalist stories, which daily you will find in the internet or in the newspapers. If I had a fetish for other people’s darkness, like you said, I would buy the trashy magazines or spend a lot of time reading such stories. I don’t consider anyone who posted here to be like that either. There was another case similar to this one we are discussing that also took place in Austria in 2007.Where a woman kept her three daughters imprisoned for 7 years, without light and in a very confined area, it was revealed that the mother had a nervous breakdown which resulted in a serious mental illness. Why the Fritzl case disturbs us so much? Talking for my self only:

One-The fact that enough people lived around the dungeon and no one became aware of what was happening in the dungeon for 24 years!!

Two- The mother, in which planet did she live? It has been said that she and her husband didn’t have sexual relations for years, and yet, she didn’t consider suspicious the fact that her husband spent many nights in the dungeon? But even more serious then that, when they only had 4 kids he was arrested for raping another girl, and still, she gave him 3 more kids and adopted 3 others, her grandsons.

Three- Why after the first rape the guy was released from jail? Why didn’t the authorities flag him as a sex offender?

Four- If Elizabeth was missing and she had many other siblings, why none of them tried to look for her and find out more of her whereabouts?

The disturbing factor to me is HOW THE HECK NO ONE NOTICED ANYTHING?

How many times Elizabeth dreamed that her mother, brothers or somebody else would hear her screaming or banging. And I am not only talking about her ‘physical’ shrieks for help, I am also talking about her desperate soul trying to reach her mother or her siblings.

A lot of people should feel responsible for what was done to Elizabeth.

Passer By
02 May 2008 at 16:59

P.S. I also applaud your typically "proletarian" nickname here.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 17:04

@Passer By

I have never claimed to be an expert, I have merely said that my own experiences have left me wondering why something as atrocious as this case would fascinate so many people. My only conclusion can be that the middle class have so much comfort that they unconsciously seek fetish to give balance to their opulence. As this case is real, this could never happen in the world the middle class exist in, they find themselves fascinated with every macabre detail, every expose. The same can be shown through use of fetish over celebrity, sex, commodity, etc.

Your right, I have used this case to my own end of sorts, it is a perfect example of the fetish our society has for the macabre. If this sort of thing really upset society then social crimes would plummet overnight. Instead we lock ourselves in our homes watching the world through the lens of the media.

Tracy
02 May 2008 at 17:11

To PlanetStarbucks:

Sociopath/antisocial personality disorder means one who lacks respect for other people (your need to correct another’s personal opinion, as if yours is the only correct opinion or verbiage), humiliates other people (evident in your posts), is irritable and aggressive In short you delusional to believe that we reading the article are doing so to feed our sick fetishes. We are simply reading an article and a commentor who feels our comments are inferior and immature. We are SIMPLY COMMENTING ON A HORRIFIC INCIDENT.

1- Please reread my words verbatim, not what you believe my words to mean. I stated Quote: “1- The man was a sociopath. We are not drawn to the story because we find interest in HIM, rather we are feeling disgust and hatred toward him.” Where does that state I’m taking away his humanity? He is human, I despise his behavior and actions, not the fact that he is a man. You are an intelligent person, very persuasive, but your words don’t cause me to feel more animosity to Mr. Fritzl. I find it fascinating that you could read so much into my 25 word (or so) comment.

2- You brought up the fact that we are feeding a fetish, a fetish is a form of attraction (fascination), is it not? I don’t REQUIRE knowledge of the horrors in the cellar, I simply clicked on a headline that was news worthy, or are YOU minimizing the event as being not newsworthy, insignificant?

3-Again, keep this simple, read the statement I made “If everyone "focused on our own lives" as you suggested, Elisabeth would still be in the dungeon.” Did I state how she was freed? No. (example of your need to place yourself in the authoritarian position by correcting a remark that initially stated a simple fact, that she was no longer in the dungeon) I simply made the remark that so we would be more involved. If we all completely minded our own business, more of this would be going on. If the Dr minded his own business, he wouldn’t have pressed Elisabeth for information. Being someone's aquaintence is not obtrusive.

I’m sorry to burst your stereotypical attempt-at-demeaning-me-bubble. You couldn’t be more incorrect in your assumptions (oh no… that statement will for sure have your fingers flying on the keyboards @ me)...

I am a 40 year old American woman, married with two small children, who works a 40 hour week for a company subcontracted by the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. I don't know where I'm sending my kids to school, they're like war zones now-a-days. I have a well paying job and in my youth I was on my way to being a professional golfer (bet you didn’t see that coming). I am a political and ideological conservative. We have no need here to campaign for women’s rights, we have them. If I did raise money for beaten or raped women I would consider it to be a worthwhile use of my time.

You are so contradicting. You state, as if it were a slight at my personality, that I “raise money for beaten or raped women”. I agree that as you state “These are the crimes that happen every minute of every day. What happened to Elizabeth is irreprehensible.” I, Tracy, simply “focused” on her plight for about 5 minutes reading the story. I’ve focused more on your comments LOL).

I’m confused how “we disassociate ourselves with the true crimes that happen all around us.” within the 5 minutes that I read this story. You continue ”Let me ask you this. If we lived in a world where everyone knew their neighbour and we looked after beaten and raped women, even worked positively to prevent it in the first place, would this atrocity have been more or less likely to occur?” There is no yes/no answer. I could say “Why yes, that would help”, but then realistically aren’t we all too involved in our own lives to take the time to possibly impose upon another’s privacy? We all have secrets and are often manipulative. No one will ever know what goes on in the mind of a criminal/sicko.

Mr. Fritzl was a sick individual. No on will ever know what “might have been”…. Should-have, could-have, would-have-been. In fact, your sentence about us looking after beaten and raped women and positive prevention DOES happen today. If you’re not aware of that, I’m sorry for you.

Also… EVERY PERSON, middleclass or upper class, old and young, has had an event in their life that is heartbreaking and traumatic. The severity of ones heartbreak/travesties are relative to each individual. To assume person A’s experience is more traumatic to person B’s is pretentious (aka grandiose).

This is my last comment regarding “PlanetStarbucks”, my life is much more interesting than dealing with another’s attempts at belittling me and twisting my words so they fit his/her agenda. Although it has been somewhat stimulating!

@antileft:

My parents were “middle class”. We didn’t struggle to survive we didn’t have much, we had food on the table, roof over our head, car, new & clean clothes, etc. And, I’m grateful to have the experience. I’m more appreciative of what I have today. Also, how does PlanetStarbucks get off making the middle-class actually the lower class (“There can be a certain pride in being at the bottom of the pile with no realistic way out”)

antileft
02 May 2008 at 17:18

See, planet starbucks, theres a difference, isnt there? Youre trying to use long words youve picked up from a big book youre struggling to read in order to make yourself sound intelligent. Tracy, on the other hand, is just typing. And yet she out-debates you. Youre not only a hypocrite, but also a faker- go back to watching tv and drinking beer. Youre not bright enough to have a serious opinion.

Tracy
02 May 2008 at 17:19

PS... How did the story change my life? I see my children even more as a blessing now. We are such fragile creatures. We often hurt eachother without regard to the long term affects. My heart aches for what this woman and these children have missed out on. The lives they've led were/are incomprehensable. I pray for their healing. I pray that we DO get to know our neighbors more. I pray that we DON'T ignore those strange noises. I hope that I don't ASSUME that someone else will do something, let ME BE THE ONE! I hope I never assume that I am so much better than my fellow man that I feel I don't need to get to know them.

Passer By
02 May 2008 at 17:23

PlanetStarbucks, obviously, "i'm an expert" weren't your exact words, duh. Nevertheless, you rather deterministically got all the i"s dotted and all the t"s crossed on the matter of the "whys" and the "hows" of people's reaction to the case. Now, I ask you, what makes you so damn sure, these are the reasons and these are the thoughts of the people, who's emotional radar just happened to twitch even a tiny bit upon hearing of this horrific case?

Yes, indeed, your priority seems to be "society" and the "middle-class" -bashing and you are using this poor woman's ordeal to make your little point and to point your little finger one more time (as I am positive, this is not the firs time you are "letting it all out"). That's just LOW!

if you really cared and "couldn't relate" as you are claiming here, you wouldn't have used this disturbing incident so cheaply as a mere opportunity to push your precious little "opinion".

Hypocrite indeed.

Have a nice day.

Sweetstart
02 May 2008 at 20:18

Oh my God!! wasnt the idea of the posts to write about the case??... =)

Why?!?
02 May 2008 at 21:46

Well, this is just sad people! Reading this story has made you all turn on eachother. How does that make any sense?!? This is very childish!

luz
02 May 2008 at 22:35

s

luz
02 May 2008 at 22:45

I can't understand why all this anger against PlanetStarbucks, almost like there isn't an effort to understand what he/she's saying. It is rational and very clear. Not offensive. I can’t see no lacks of respect for other people… what I see is a group of people getting stronger against PlanetStarbucks because they are many against one and, therefore, they think they can.

JL
03 May 2008 at 12:52

I agree with PlanetStarbucks. The Middle Classes in particular seem to take peculiar interest in the perversity, misfortune and suffering of others. This is why petit bourgeois love to read the Daily Mail. These are people who do not have the moral and/or intellectual integrity to move beyond their own crass materialist conformity and content themselves with living vicariously through soap operas, magazines and degenerate celebrity culture.

There really is something very seriously wrong with the UK on both a moral and cultural level; it is, after all, the country that gave us the Wests and Harold Shipman (the latter being probably one of the greatest serial murderers of all time). The kind of Schadenfreude and fake sympathy that the terrible Fritzl case arouses is by no means confined to the middle strata of British society, but it is particularly hypocritical when it emanates from this segment of the population that sees itself somehow as the guardian of basic moral decency. Some of the feelings of sympathy and revulsion felt by British observers may in fact be genuine but it is so often accompanied by the sneering attitude that George Orwell identified as one of the salient features of anglo-saxon civilisation - we use these media events to deflect attention away from our own morally blighted lives.

jamief
03 May 2008 at 15:49

I am aware that this is the New Statesman and therefore can feel little surprise at the amount of intellectual posturing going on in this thread. I find myself in agreement with Tracy- let's comment on the story at hand, which after all is in response to an article entitled 'Helping Elisabeth Fritzl'

I would only wish to comment to express my own reaction to this newstory and not moralize on others' reasons for doing so.

I do think there is something quite unique about the events uncovered in Amstetten this week. The circumstances surrounding Elisabeth's and her childrens captivity and abuse

are truly horrific, and while we should never forget that there are women and children everywhere suffering at the hands of abusers, and we should feel no less for them, there is something quite unparalleled in Elisabeth's experience; not so much the abuse by her father over such a long period of time but more her prolonged incarceration in such a dark and terrible place, while this abuse was taking place.It is her experience, as a victim which is so unique and very hard to fathom, rather than outrage at / fascination with the crime and its perpetrator. it is this which has affected me personally, all the more so on hearing the accounts of how she has still managed to fulfill the role as mother to her children as best she could in such diabolical conditions.

She deserves our praise in equal measure to our pity and sympathy.

antileft
03 May 2008 at 16:01

"The Middle Classes in particular seem to take peculiar interest in the perversity, misfortune and suffering of others"

Wow, it's been quite interesting reading the above comments- we middle classes are barely even aware of the working class, and yet on the other side, you really hate us, dont you?! It really bugs you that we re richer, more successful, and have more enjoyable, luxurious lives, huh? I can tell there's a real, stinging jealousy here. Oh well. Id pity you, but, well, youre such a whining, miserable bunch of losers that it's hard to take you seriously.

life is tough
03 May 2008 at 18:29

Face it - sensationalism sells. When the story has been told, heard, disected and discussed and the papers made their margin, another torid, repulsive story will sell the papers. Middle class, upper crust, whoever......

JL
03 May 2008 at 20:52

antileft -

Not all criticisms of the Middle Class are the result of a Marxist proletarian mindset. Some emanate from within. According to the usual criteria of income and education I should be placed firmly amongst the Upper Middle Class. However, I have chosen to reject the mindnumbingly tedious conformity usually associated with people who bleat on about 'family values' and send their kids to fee-paying schools to avoid potentially contaminating contact with hoi polloi.

Flaubert defined the 'bourgeois' as 'ceux qui pensent bassement' (those who think basely); the epithet relates more to a reactionary mindset that privileges social respectability above authenticity than it does to any socio-economic status. Thankfully I am largely free of spite or jealousy and have managed to avoid dealing with the smallness of most aspects of British culture by leaving the UK.

As for the Fritzl case, the media was right to report this in the first instance, but as with all such events, the gutter press (and now also, unfortunately, formerly serious papers such as the Guardian and Telegraph) will use it to satisfy the bourgeois (yes, I used it again) public's lust for sensationalist disaster pornography that delights in the sufferings of others.

Bubbles
04 May 2008 at 04:52

It appears by the news reports that there people that knew Elizabeth was aware she was being abused by her own father but turned a blind eye. Also, there are a lot of things that werent right but did anyone intervene- No, they just seemed to ingnore it. It so appears that no one seem to want to come to Elizabeths aid and so the father knew he could get away with his unspeakable crime.

helenhill11111
04 May 2008 at 05:22

Planet S is clearly emotionally vacant. No other reason to throw that out there. So sad. get a life PS.

I am upper middle class and absolutely cannot read enough about this case. My reaction to the horror is complicated; I am human. Am I emotionally vacant? far from it. This is, for me, a complex and painful learning experience; i wish to be all the human i can be. I read the lives of the saints with as much obsession. I have spent far more hours on Gurdjieff, Meyer Baba, Amma, Goenka, Hume, Buddha. But it is all the same. I am not delighted, i am heading into the human storm with ful lcuriosity, conscience and integrity.

caramel
04 May 2008 at 08:29

I grew up in a middle class family. I've had some advantages as far as education and lifestyle go, sure. It's a rather ridiculous fallacy of hasty generalization, however, to insinuate that all middle class citizens must therefore have easier lives. My own has been polluted with physcial, verbal and emotional abuse from my father, an alcoholic brother who was addicted to heroin for over a decade, a sister who ran away from home to live with a severely psychotic and abusive boyfriend who wouldn't let us even see her for two years and who threatened to kill us all and would show up at my bus stop on my way to school periodically, and having to deal with my own emotional baggage of having to live in a household where all of these things were swept under the rug in order to save face in the community. My husband was also middle class. His father died last year and his mother is very ill and has been told she has about five years left. Do you really think that the pain that comes with these situations is less because of what "class" we're in?? I find it rather disgusting for anyone to tell me what I'm emotionally capable of, based solely on my family's income. I would have traded it in a second to have grown up feeling safe and loved.

I'm very sorry to have even wasted the time to comment on that, rather than the actual article, but I was getting so irritated. At first I was really interested in Starbucks' posts, but it quickly became clear that the mood behind them was just condescending and aggressive, rather than objective and thoughtful.

Personally, I read various news articles. I think it's good to know what's going on in the world. I've read the articles about the Fritzls more intently. Why? Because I care. I'm sorry if some people are too cynical to believe that (and I really AM sorry, it must be horrible to live under the assumption that all people are self-serving), but it's true. I'm aware that my tears aren't going to fix anything for these victims or any others. But people SHOULD cry when they hear of a story like this. They should be upset, and feel angry, and should pray for things to get better. When another person has been made to suffer unjustly, people should care. That's part of what makes us human, the ability to feel compassion. This family has suffered more than most would believe possible, and so that instinct to care is all the more powerful. Obviously people should take these feelings and put them to use by trying to improve the lives of those who are hurting around them, and I genuinely believe that some people will. No, I don't think that's naive. I guess it's my hope that when a situation like this one is made so public, it will inspire others to take those feelings of compassion and help those who need it. That it can serve as a wake-up call, so that maybe, even in as horrifying a situation as this one, some good might come from it.

Sunday
04 May 2008 at 09:51

People! Is anyone interested in actually helping Elisabeth and her kids? I'm talking about action rather than arguing. I don't have a lot of money but would be willing to set up a direct debit system for at least the next five years to offer some support. Is anyone else interested or do you just want to destroy each other with your intellects ad nauseum? Being able to spell better doesn't actually help Elisabeth. How about doing something constructive?

Jenz
04 May 2008 at 11:45

It is ironic that Starbucks epithet is that of the global giant that is compromising culture all over the world. And, you Poms - why are you so hung up on class. Get over it. There are plenty of middle class people who have less disposable income than the so-called "working class" - and plenty who DO NOT send their kids to private schools. And which "class" is the sensationalist gutter press aiming at for readership anyway.

The case is fascinating because it asks questions of our very humanity-n fact of what makes us human and what gives us the tenacity to hold on to some thread of sanity despite the most extreme of circumstances- it asks questions that are nothing whatsovere to do with what oart of society we reside in- but instead force us to look into our dark and atavistic soul- and yet at the same time.wonder at the extraordinary humanity of Elizabeth who, despite such experience of brutality, looked after her children with compassion and kindness. It is a case that shows us the quality of "humanness" at its two extremes- you would have to me made of stone not to be moved and intrigued- we are looking at ourselves here and grasping at the very edges of our comprehension for some thread of understanding. Of course we keep reading.

Jenz
04 May 2008 at 11:45

It is ironic that Starbucks epithet is that of the global giant that is compromising culture all over the world. And, you Poms - why are you so hung up on class. Get over it. There are plenty of middle class people who have less disposable income than the so-called "working class" - and plenty who DO NOT send their kids to private schools. And BTW which "class" is the sensationalist gutter press aiming at for readership anyway.

The case is fascinating because it asks questions of our very humanity-n fact of what makes us human and what gives us the tenacity to hold on to some thread of sanity despite the most extreme of circumstances- it asks questions that are nothing whatsovere to do with what oart of society we reside in- but instead force us to look into our dark and atavistic soul- and yet at the same time.wonder at the extraordinary humanity of Elizabeth who, despite such experience of brutality, looked after her children with compassion and kindness. It is a case that shows us the quality of "humanness" at its two extremes- you would have to me made of stone not to be moved and intrigued- we are looking at ourselves here and grasping at the very edges of our comprehension for some thread of understanding. Of course we keep reading.

tallnbeautiful
04 May 2008 at 13:39

How many of you were raised to "Respect Your Elders?" From the time you are born you are taught things from the person that is raising you. You are taught what is right and what is wrong, don't touch this or don't do that. You are also taught fear, quilt, blame, Trust, and Treats through out your life. You may have belonged to a certain church that also taught you quilt from "Man Made Laws" and that if you broke these laws you would go to hell. These are all things you have known from the time you are born. You don't just overcome them as an adult.

I think fear of a parent is the most horrible feeling to have as a child, or fear of an adult. How many people believe a child over an adult? Not many! I learned of a situation from my older sister years back when a man or so called friend was trying to sexually abuse her. My parents did not believe her and they "Made Her" be friends to this sickko..... Nobody believed her, not even the police. I had a lake house where I went every summer with my family. When you were a teenager around the lake, there was a place you could all go to and "Hang out." I met a boy through my cousin back when I was 12. We were friends for our whole life at the lake. Now I have children and he has children and he needs babysitters to care for his little ones. My girls are of age along with loads of other teenagers in the area....... Everyone knew him and liked him and trusted him. Which also lead to our children liking him and trusting him. Now, our children are baby sitting for his children and he comes home and he talks to them and gets to know them real well. Gets them to Trust him. Now he holds all this info and then he can use it for his advantage..... Years go by and he is arrested for child molestation. Then Rape comes out. My daughter being one that he raped over and over again. Hundreds of kids came forward to the DA but they would not go to court. My daughter and 3 others did go to court and it was awful! When I was handed 2 sheets of paper showing me what a "Petifile" is all about, I wanted to thorw up. All the implications were all there in black and white. These people are "experts" in their field. This man was an antrapanor, helped people in the community, helped his neighbor when in trouble and nobody knew of his other life. No-body knew he was rich either...... He thought he could get out of trouble with the court system, but it back fired when he came up against his old time friend! If he thought he knew somebody who he could fool, I knew somebody better!!!!! It took 3 years, but I won. He spent 12 years in prison.

I had many people say to me that this would never happen to their child because they taught them right from wrong. I was told by an undercover detective who delt in this crime that "People are Ignorant!" He told me this: "You do not know HOW you are going to deal with a situation until you are in that situation!" He was right. I felt like somebody sufficated me for years.

Now, when my husband read me this story about Elisabeth, I was "Sick to my stomach" over this case... I thought I was living a nightmare with my daughter, I was wrong. This was a nightmare.... I have had nightmares everynight over this which of course has brought out my own hell that I had to go through from years ago. I just want to know that she is going to be taken care of the rest of her life with tender loving care. My heart aches for her so badly I can't imagine have survived in that prison all those years. This monster should be put back in his own dungeon to live until he dies. Prison is too good for him....

caramel
04 May 2008 at 16:18

"Is anyone interested in actually helping Elisabeth and her kids? I'm talking about action rather than arguing."

Of course people are interested in helping her! I have yet to see any fundraisers online, but I did read that Natalie Kampusch (sp?) is intending to give them money from her own fund, so I don' t know if that means any donations to Natalie would reach the Fritzls. too. I've been keeping an eye out, though. I'll post if I see any news on the subject.

helenhill11111
04 May 2008 at 18:29

I would be happy to contribute also, I imagine a world-wide fund will be set up.

PlanetS, though sad and angry, brought up an interesting question: why am I obsessed? I've thought about it and decided to post this assessment.

-I cannot get her out of my mind, because I think she must be an extraordinary human being. To teach her children that heaven is "up there" that God is in the moon and stars, to guide them to make stars to put on the walls, to love them and keep herself and them alive in the face of the most horrific conditions a human has ever in my mind been forced to live: I believe she is a talisman, an angel, a force of goodness and hope unparalleled in any story I have ever heard in my entire life.

How did she raise those infants, and offer a life of hope to them as adolescents? What would it be like to only view the world through a television set, a brutal "father", a dark dungeon and the love of an extraordinary mother. I believe she must have a light within her that outshines the most horrific evil.

And she won in the end; she is free, and her children are going to see a world of wonder that she has prepared them for with a faith I cannot imagine.

She has expanded my belief in humanity in unimaginable ways, while the father has nearly completely eroded it.

PlanetS, do you still imagine that this bourgeouis fool is a pervert who enjoys the spectacle and is "delighted" by it? Can you begin to see what this might mean on so many levels to so many people?

silva
05 May 2008 at 01:43

Planet Starbucks,

I *am* a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I take offence that you suggest the only reason people take interest in this story is to 'sate their fetishism'.

It's sad that you appear to have made this news item into something that's all about you and your ability to debate.

Your cynicism and drive to prove yourself intellectually and morally superior has clouded your ability to perceive the massive variation in the feeling states of a very large group of human beings reading this story.

When I read about Elisabeth Fritzl and her children, there is only one word that can describe my emotional state. And that's not 'intrigue' or 'sated': it's 'empathy'.

Sweetstart
05 May 2008 at 04:37

To critize the people who reads this "kind of news" is less valid, if it comes from a person who is actually reading the same news, as the people she/he critizes.

Plante, what makes YOU read about this case? what made you come to this page and comment?

Maggie
05 May 2008 at 13:39

The discussion above is very interesting and thought-provoking. I've been tormented by this woman's hideous story and cannot absorb the enormity of her suffering. That one can not only survive but find the human reserves to raise children in such horrible circumstances is worthy of our reflection. Once a fund is set up I will donate. Whilst I feel abhorrence for any rape or act of abuse, it's hard to compare these experiences with Elizabeth's misery. Can one person's misery be greater than another's? Not in real terms, I suppose, but I can only think that Elizabeth's dreadful life is as tragic as it gets. Initially, I simply couldn't comprehend what I was reading; how I find it difficult to comprehend that this woman still had sufficient wits about her after 24 years to insist her ailing daughter be given medical treatment. This betokens a mind still intact and still amazingly moral, loving and rational, against all the odds. She is clearly the antithesis of her tormentor. Can there be a more vivid contrast in human behaviour? I'm not a ghoul or sensationalist or voyeur, but I will follow this story in the hope that one day we read of this woman's recovery sufficient to allow her to live a happier life. But - like a Greek tragedy with the chorus outlining the eventual ruin of individuals - I fear for her future.

dorchester
05 May 2008 at 15:10

As important as it is to discuss what Elizabeth has lost and suffered, we should also acknowledge her bravery and resourcefulness. Articles refer to Josef Fritzl's cunning and planning but the true marvel is Elizabeth. She cared for children, gave birth by herself, while being abused and neglected for an impossible 24 years. Let's not dwell on her father's depravity but on her strength. Her country should care for her and value her and her children for the rest of their lives. They have endured more suffering than can be imagined and they must never be abandonned again. For every reference to her rape, there should be a commendation for her mothering and survival instincts. Let's not victimize her more. She is a hero.

dorchester
05 May 2008 at 15:15

Notartreuhandbank . This is the official fund set up for donations for Elizabeth Fritzl and her children.

fairplay
05 May 2008 at 19:13

antileft

were you bullied at school? did the rough boys from the council estate give you a hard time?

i won't use big words. just these:

u r a nob

PlanetStarbucks
05 May 2008 at 20:31

I seem to have provoked a general negative response with my posts, with the exception of a couple of commentators. As far as I can see there is no logical inconsistency with my arguments. I do find it quite funny that virtually every counter argument against me (bar antileft's accusation that I am unintelligent despite his failure to show why I am) revolves around this opinion that I am sad, angry and emotionally vacant and my opinions arise out of anger and have no basis.

This case is a sensationalised horror and little more. Horrors of this magnitude happen across the world but we spend little time thinking about them. I wonder if the same commentators whose lives have been touched by this event will now hardly be able to live given the horrors now facing the Burmese people. If not, then it is difficult to deny that the fascination boils down to fetish rather than suffering.

silva
06 May 2008 at 00:17

Planet Starbucks.

You forgot those arguments that boiled down to this:

Empathy.

If you find reading about this case fetishistic, then that's your experience. But speak for yourself. Don't assume to speak on behalf of a very diverse group of people, and don't assume that human beings are a homogenous group of people who experience everything in the same way.

Visit other message boards occasionally. You may find that people are equally abhorred by other human rights violations around the world - not just this one.

Would you prefer that they weren't?

Or do you think you're the only one who is?

PlanetStarbucks
06 May 2008 at 00:26

@silva,

Human beings are fundamentally simple creatures. Our emotional responses can be accurately predicted and controlled by use of psychoanalytic techniques and medicine if necessary. While people may experience things in different ways their base psychological reponses can still be modelled effectively. It is this notion that we are all somehow unique despite the overbearing weight of science and philosophy to show otherwise that leads you to this erroneous conclusion.

silva
06 May 2008 at 01:23

Planet Starbucks,

So you think that someone who has been sexually abused by somebody who is a heavy smoker and drinker will experience the same emotional responses to cigarette smoke and alcohol fumes as someone who hasn't?

You think that someone who has experienced abuse directly will have the same emotional response to a news item about abuse as someone who hasn't?

Certainly, human beings have more in common than we do that distinguish one from another.

But there's more complexity to it than your simplified conclusion.

Again, if you find reading about this case to be fetishistic, then that's your experience. Speak for yourself.

antileft
06 May 2008 at 07:09

haha planet starbucks, you make so much effort to sound more intelligent than you are! I bet you have your dictionary right there, dont ya?

"I do find it quite funny that virtually every counter argument against me (bar antileft's accusation that I am unintelligent despite his failure to show why I am) ..."

Actually, I think youll find that I did show it quite clearly. Here, let me show you again:

You said:

"I would also suggest that your penchant for writing running commentaries is worrying as it suggests that you perceive yourself as some grandeur entity that must write down every nuance of thought as to allow admiration of its brilliance."

You see the problems, starbucks?

1. It's completely hypocritical. As Ive said, youve posted far more than me.

2. This is a clear example of ad hominem which you keep criticizing me for. Again, youre being hypocritical. If you cant see the hypocrisy here, then youre clearly dumb as hell. Sorry!

helenhill11111
06 May 2008 at 07:41

starbuck and antileft: GET A ROOM

skylee
06 May 2008 at 08:23

My heart and thoughts are with Elizabeth and the children she gave birth to... I can only hope, that now she's free, life can move forward for her. Just lost for words, I hope to the universe the prisoners kill the sick sick man who did this to her, so much hatred felt towards this "father".. he cannot be considered a father, he is just sick...

PlanetStarbucks
06 May 2008 at 11:09

@antileft,

You cannot attack the arguments so you attack the man; this when juxtaposed with your soliloquies reveals much about your personality. Your own purported example of my own ad hominem is again poor. My statement explaining why your use of such soliloquies would suggest a psychoanalytic dysfunction was a rational comment which appeals to no base response. Making claims such that I have been avidly using a dictionary during this commentary is the latest in a long line of personal attacks you have disseminated in an attempt to portray my comments as unintelligent, vacuous and hidden behind a smokescreen of terms you think I have no understanding of. Please attack my arguments and not my class, intelligence, or any other irrelevant factor that has no bearing on the actual substance of my arguments. If I am as unintelligent as you portray, this should be easy.

@silva,

As I stated our base psychological responses are still the same, experiences invoke visceral reactions. If you hear a song that reminds you of your first love your body may be flushed with endorphins while a person sat next to you may have no significant emotional response. Does this subject experience mean we cannot model the reason for this response?

Psychoanalytic theory can accurately model population groups as any person who works in advertising will tell you.

antileft
06 May 2008 at 11:39

Oh dear starbucks- what hypocrisy! You must be thick as a brick to not be able to see it!

"You cannot attack the arguments so you attack the man; this when juxtaposed with your soliloquies reveals much about your personality."

Cant you see the hypocrisy here?! Isnt it obvious?! You say that Im attacking you, and then attack my personality! Ad hominem!

antileft
06 May 2008 at 11:53

What kind of an insecure show-off uses words like soliloquies, ad hominem, and Tu quoque anyway?! Youre so blatantly desperately trying to impress us starbucks, it's really quite pathetic.

PlanetStarbucks
06 May 2008 at 12:44

From philosophypages.com,

"ad hominem argument (argument against the person)

The informal fallacy of supposing that a proposition should be denied because of some disqualifying feature of the person who affirms it".

You claim that my propositions are invalid due to features you claim (erroneously) I have that have no relevance to this argument. I on the other hand am questioning your motives for attack and suggesting that your attacks have no depth, therefore I can only conclude that your reasons for arguing are purely egotistical. My arguments about people’s reaction to Elizabeth Fritzl are based in psychoanalytic theory and cultural philosophy. Your arguments are based around denigrating my standing.

As for anybody else who feels that I am attempting to use unnecessarily complicated language to explain my points then I apologise but there is little other way I can put my views across. Complex thoughts are only possible with complex language.

anotherblatherer
06 May 2008 at 14:09

I'm glad I don't have to listen to Starbucks or Antileft in a confined room. I hope neither of them are teachers. What happened to the discussion of the point? And, since when has it been fetishistic to be fascinated by a compelling story of human failing and tragedy? Everything has to do with how the story is told. Take your pick from any of the sources--as scandal, as drama, as tragedy; artfully, sloppily, sensationally, carefully...

antileft
06 May 2008 at 15:16

"Complex thoughts are only possible with complex language."

What a load of crap. No they arent!!! You can say very complicated things with very simple language! Unless youre a complete twit. Youre just trying to make yourself sound smarter than you are, because youre desperate to impress us for some reason.

"Your arguments are based around denigrating my standing."

But thats precisely the point! Hell, I didnt even finish reading the article- thats how uninterested I am in the topic! (I suppose that means Im not middle class, according to your moronic formula). It's you who's totally fascinated by this case (which I suppose somehow makes you an "emotionally vacant middle class"). I skipped straight to the comments, and was offended by your dumb belief that "middle class people are emotionally vacant"! Great "cultural philosophy" by the way- hardly intellectual, is it?

So yes, Im not debating your dull little points, Im insulting you because youre a classist idiot. Which is moronic. Your belief is that a group that repesents probably over a third of the country is "emotionally vacant" just because they belong to this group, which, as I said, happens to be one of the most diverse groups. This is why youre dumb as hell. And yes, it is as bad as saying "black people are..." because black british people are probably no more diverse than the also incredibly diverse middle class british people. In another life, youd be a racist.

JackieK
06 May 2008 at 18:37

This story is very symbolic. It is the knowledge of incest in our community emerging from the cellar. It is the knowledge of it going on and happening all around us emerging from the denial of our minds.

Some where out there
06 May 2008 at 20:01

I'd like to say people read these stories or become so focused on them because they are so unbelieveable and don't seem real.. It is hard to imagine something so horrific can happen within human society. It's like the victims them self try to imagine what it might be like above ground (heaven). I think people should be reading these stories and visting those site and think twice about there own lives and their surrounding communities. Why turn a blind eye to what has happened. I don't know how anyone can say people are reading this purely for fasination and that it is because of ones emotional vacant life. People have different reasons for reading stories like these. This horror act SHOULD NEVER EVER be forgotten. It should be a daily reminder that there are monsterous peoople out there and that there have been victims out there that have been abused unthinkably. It is still going on as we speak and as a society we should be ashamed to allow it to happen. Those who are not reading are going on with their daily lives as if it never happened and that's an injustice to all victims of any abuse. My heart goes out to Elizabeth and here family and i hope within time they are able to live a some what normal life.

Sunday
06 May 2008 at 23:34

Thank you dorchester for the tip on how to make a donation.

While I am not alone in being incredibly disturbed by this case, I have also been disturbed by the level to which I am gripped by it. I have never believed you can compare suffering, or accept that some forms of abuse are worse than others.

I think the shocking difference here though is that Elisabeth's abuse took place in the realm of non-existence. That to successfully relegate a person to 'not exist' ensures that the only hope the victim has for an end to abuse, lies in the hands of the perpetrator.

It is true that rape and incest occur all the time and that none can be judged as worse than another. But most of the time these crimes occur in the realm of existence. To be de-humanized to the dungeons of non-existence where even fresh air and day light are forbidden, where you are locked behind concrete doors, where your screams can never be heard, where the ONLY other human you see is the perpetrator, where there is NO CHANCE of calling a help-line, telling your story to ANYONE, no teachers, no passer's by, no family......it is this aspect that makes the abuse worse, the worst, how can it get any worse?

Strawberry
07 May 2008 at 08:26

When i read blaring headlines such as "Fritzl may have raped granddaughter" I can sympathise with the complaint raised by PlanetStarbucks. Although, I think the important things about this case are those that are ordinary and "boring". That long road ahead tthat we hope will lead to recovery and some sort of quality of life, taken with small steps over a long time by Elizabeth and the children.

I don't know about a class battle, in all this, I see a collective feeling of powerlessness in response to the all consuming power Fritzl exercised over his world. Apart from the dog who kept running to the door compulsively, knowing all was not well behind it - no other being questioned him.

Our feelings of powerlessness come out in different ways. I've seen it manifested mainly in a desire for revenge for Fritzl. Hang him. Prison is too good for him. Deprive him of food, drink and air for the rest of his life. His real punishment is far more mundane and it's already happening. He's simply going to be disallowed to act on his vile, base instincts that harm others for the rest of his life. I imagine for someone used to being in a position of extreme power over others to have the tables suddenly reversed might be intolerable.

I've related to some of the simple human responses I've read such as someone who said they would love to give Elizabeth a make over! Perhaps the way we become an authentic person is by doing something personal for someone else. In the absence of being able to help directly donations are a great idea.

JackieK
07 May 2008 at 09:31

Only a sick person can find any fetish in this horrific story that most people want to know about because they care about what has happened to people in the world. Only a sociopat can find it incomprehensible that there is no other reason but fetish behind an interest in this case, because the ability for empathy does not exist in his brain, it is beyond his comprehension.

Westcoaster
07 May 2008 at 22:54

Sunday

My heart goes out to you as your state of mind echoes closely my own. I am not prone to becoming personally involved in media stories yet I found myself deeply moved by this one. Perhaps because I too am Elisabeth's age and think about all that has passed in 24 years. Perhaps it is because there are so many archetypes inherent in this story it touches something subconscious in all of us. Personally I have not been myself since I first heard the story. I find myself delving for information, wanting to find out more. But I don't feel a voyeur. Something inside me is searching for a way to help or understand. Starbucks you may interpret this as you will.. You may refer to it as "fetishism" (although last I checked fetishism refers to the deification of or obsession with objects not people) or "middle class" ( I don't get that at all). Like the holocaust or 9/11 the enormity of what happened is so overwhelming that it brings out strong emotions. To deny these would be inhuman. My only fear is that I am helping fuel the media blitz which will not serve the family well. I pray that somehow they will survive the attention that has been thrown on them. The fact this story is still developing only makes it harder to look away...

Sunday
08 May 2008 at 00:24

Thanks Westcoaster - I agree with you about the media. The more financially enabled the family are, the more power they will have against the media beast, although I'm sure 'The Diary of Elisabeth Fritzl' is already outlined by some two buck biographer, not to mention the lengths the cloying media will go to for an exclusive interview. Having said that, I would sadly read the book and tune into 60 minutes that night along with the rest of the world. This is the bind. I don't have strong feelings towards Joseph Fritzl. In the world he had constructed his unimaginable and unopposed actions were justified and made perfect sense. I can almost enter into his thoughts, which I find even more disturbing.

After the initial shock of becoming aware of Elisabeth's experience, my most authentic and unmediated response was a voice that said 'I am never going to complain about my life again.' I felt a sudden connection with a gratitude for all that I have access to that is good and pure in the world and a flash of knowing that inside all of us there is something that keeps us locked away from that.

While I have been feeling isolated and disturbed for the past week or so, I have also found myself deeply immersed in life, like a child seeing the world for the first time, spellbound by autumn leaves, marveling at the ease to which I can switch on a heater, open a window, that my son can kiss me good bye and walk to school, that my cat is free to leave but chooses to stay. Maybe PStarabucks is right - that only through this evil am I able to mobilize my own notions of good - that in knowing so fully about what has been denied to Elisabeth I am able to access gratitude for what I have always had?

In any case, I am deeply humbled.

Robert Powell
08 May 2008 at 11:14

Well you don't sound very humble Sunday. This is an article about how the professionals go about helping someone who has been the victim of some very extreme abuse. So what do you do? Come online and talk about yourself - after getting over the terrible shock you've just suffered...

Were you directly affected by the death of Princess Diana too?

Robert Powell
08 May 2008 at 11:20

Oh and Westcoaster. You haven't been yourself? Oh dear. Isolated and disturbed. How will you ever recover from this experience. Perhaps someone at the New Statesman will commission something on narcissism.

PlanetStarbucks
08 May 2008 at 11:58

@Robert Powell,

I think you may have hit on a key term there: narcissism. Why do people feel so involved with this case? It could be a mixture of their own narcissistic tendencies leading them to involve themselves on a personal level; a tendency that arises from reducing this case to a fetish.

Marx spoke of commodity fetish; Freud used it in a psychoanalytical sense. People seem to be reducing this woman’s horror and her father’s evil into an easy-to-use fetish that they can then project their own narcissistic agenda onto. As I stated in an earlier post, if the horrors of Elizabeth and the cellar have drove your egos to such lengths, how do you now feel about the hundred thousand who have died in Burma?

Sunday
08 May 2008 at 14:01

Fuck off Robert Powell. This is a site which asks for comments and reflections on particular articles. Do you really think after 90 odd blog entries that the conversation wouldn't progress towards something .... human.

Robert Powell
08 May 2008 at 15:08

I know which is why I gave vent to mine about your egotistical rantings. Funny how your selfish, childish persona makes you lash out when criticised. A little secret, not everything is about you!

jamief
08 May 2008 at 15:17

@PlanetStarbucks

Your superior and condescending attitude towards the vast majority of the contributors here seems to know no bounds and I am tempted to agree with helenhill 1111's suggestion that you and antileft ' get a room'

"sensationalised horror and little more"

"horrors of this magnitude happen across the world"

I would argue that the bare facts of this story require little in the way of sensationalising , the horror speaks for itself and as I commented on 3 May there is a quite unique quality to the events that have been uncovered in Amstetten in the last 10 days or so, which does in my mind account for people's fascination with the case.

I would refute your 'fetish' argument on the basis that most people here including myself are not habitual tabloid/ national enquirer readers who scour the press looking for salacious headlines to indulge their ' narcissistic tendencies' , but have simply been affected by this story and above all else as I suggested in my previous comment, intensely moved by the humanity of Elisabeth F. in juxtaposition to the evil deeds done to her by her father.

Your throwing of Burma into the mix was so predictable, I was actually anticipating it. I am sure that

everyone here is deeply saddened by the mass suffering there caused by this natural disaster, but it is not the subject of this thread, and provokes very different feelings and thoughts to the ones being discussed here.

For one who stores so much in the 'logical consistency 'of their arguments perhaps you find yourself being forced to agree with Josef Fritzl when he argues that by incarcerating his daughter he was saving her from a lifetime of drug abuse- hard to argue with the logic there, eh?

Validity and logic..... simply put, isn't everything.

Gladys
08 May 2008 at 15:21

Reading through the comments has invoked a few moments of laughter, particularly the idiocy PlanetStarbucks has been spouting and the attempts to engage the asinine arguments given by that poster. Folks, if you stop addressing the person then that particular headache will vanish.

Concerning the death penalty thing from the poster from Utah... Life imprisonment, whether in a prison or in a cellar (hey, I LIKED that idea!), is far greater punishment in my mind than just quickly killing someone. Gives them more time to think. I don't believe it matters whether the guy is locked up in a prison or in a mental institution, either, for that matter. Just so he never gets out.

I am from the US so the class thing you all are arguing over is admittedly of no interest to me. What is of interest is the lack of coverage of this story in the States. Sure, when it first came out the media covered it. But there isn't a lot about it now, so I had to search the net for additional information. I find the lack of information in the US appalling and shows a lack of care for humanity by our media that frightens me as an American citizen. A lot of things frighten me about the US these days, but that is a different discussion.

I am a survivor of childhood abuse. I am not going into all that happened so don't ask. I will tell you it covered all gamuts. And we were poor and I was attending an upper middle class school so there was no area of safety for me as a child. I also have been raped and suffered other abuses as an adult. I know a bit about PTSD and other reactions to having been abused, having suffered from it and having been treated for it. I agree with a lot of what the expert who wrote this article said. However, I have a major gripe. It is that gripe that lead me to read the comments here and then post.

When she is talking about Elizabeth's final issue in dealing with the children she gave birth to from the rapes by her father, she says "some may also have been abused". I was like, 'what?!?!" Every one in that family has been abused. Those kids that were taken and lived with her parents have scars of whatever lies he told to cover up the absence of their mother. Whether he laid a a hand on them or not. Which is also highly likely. It boggles my mind that no one would think he would abuse anyone living upstairs. And now finding out what happened to their mother and their siblings, of which they had no idea existed, they will need help and counseling too. Everyone in that family is a victim of the dad's abuse. I feel for his wife and worry that she may not be able to handle the revelation and ramifications that her belief in him allowed her children and grandchildren to suffer such horrors. I hope they are providing all of the family the mental health support that is required. I do not believe Elizabeth and the children with her in the dungeon will ever be able to overcome what was done to them regardless the level of support and mental health care they receive, with the exception of the 5 year old. He is young enough that if her mothering was as good as is claimed, he may have a chance of a 'normal' life sometime in his future. Still he will carry the scars of this abuse and torture with him till the end of his days. It doesn't end for the victims upon release from the abuse, or even after years of treatment. People don't understand that.

Also, there is no comparing of abuse where one person's experience of abuse is 'worse' than another person's experience of abuse. All is horrific and all is soul rendering. So please do not use this example of profound human suffering at the hands of a psychopath to negate or make less your response of caring for those who were not locked in a cellar for 24 years.

Jane Greene
08 May 2008 at 15:22

Refute means disprove Jamief - you haven't refuted anything you've merely disagreed.

tazgill
08 May 2008 at 18:21

I am responding to the middle-class fetishism comment made at the top of the comment list. I am completely absorbed by this story and I wake up in the middle of the night worrying about Elisabeth and her children and wonder how and if her life will become even somewhat enjoyable after her horrors. I am not perversly attracted to the story by some fascination with the underbelly of our society. I am very saddened by the events I have read and hope and pray that she will be alright. I read many articles on this story and I hope to hear about her progress in therapy. I am sure I am naive to the issues she will face in the aftermath.

Westcoaster
08 May 2008 at 18:21

The fact that such a private story is being played out in the media is like the media itself: both good and bad. On the one hand it will financially enable Elisabeth and her family to live out the rest of their lives without worry about money. On the other hand I can't imagine what it would be like to have been isolated from the world for so long only to be thrust into it's brightest spotlight. Also as of today it seems obvious that Josef Fritzl wants to use the media to gain attention for himself (like all psychopaths), justify his actions and/or prepare his insanity case. I just wish he'd shut up already.

Gladys I have a question for you. I know little about chid abuse and the environment in which it exists. Do you think it is conceivable that the mother knew nothing before the girl disappeared? Somehow I'm not buying it. And the children that kept popping up on the doorstep?

Gladys
08 May 2008 at 19:18

Westcoaster...

First, I don't know if she knew or not. But, I believe it is possible that she was oblivious, that she trusted him fully, that he had worked on her during the marriage to get her to be docile and not ask any questions of him, that he had manipulated her, groomed her, etc. to believe anything he said. Abusers are very good at saying all the right things and manipulating the people around them so they do not suspect what is going on, and hiding their crimes.

It is not always true that the spouse doesn't know what is going on. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. But it can not be assumed that just because she was married to him and living in the same house that she knew what he was doing. After all, the police and social workers believed him, that his daughter had run away and joined a cult, and that she had dropped off the children to be taken care of because the cult didn't allow children. Why would his wife suspect anything else? As far as the incest starting at eleven... she may not have seen anything to cause her to question his actions toward the child. Unless she walked in on the rape, or saw him touching the child inappropriately, and most people might think an inappropriate touch was a hand landing wrong. He wouldn't have flaunted it. Easier by far to discount an odd moment than to think something like incest is happening, especially if the person is blinded by love or dependent for care as a spouse may be. It is often hard for a parent to believe a direct charge against someone they know made by a child. If there was no direct charge made against him it is possible she never saw the signs.

I am bothered, however, that he was charged with rape in the 60's and she stayed with him. I think that should have been her first clue to get out and take any kids she had with her.

Ablack
08 May 2008 at 22:49

I have, as so many other been taken in my this story. Some people may want to say it is my middle class status or my fascinatation with the less fortunate, which is completely insane. We are all human, that is the commom thread in this story. We are all sensitive to man's inhumanity towards man. I don't believe that I or anyone needs to be "labeled" because we have the capacity to care. I pray every night for this family and believe as others do that Elisabeth is an incredible woman and I pray that she will at some point in her life find peace.

Sunday
08 May 2008 at 23:52

Robert Powell - lashing out when criticized is a little healthier than your response - lashing out when not criticized. Your use of the word 'childish' as an attack (apart from your other comments) is all the confirmation I need to assure me I am dealing with someone here who has absolutely no understanding of the human condition. Go away with your pop-psychology. Resorting to comments such as 'it's not all about you' is a meaningless cheap shot and apart from that - I'm sorry - MY RESPONSE to any particular situation IS ACTUALLY ALL ABOUT ME, and I am not denying that. I am human and have internal responses to external events - so crucify me. Perhaps you should have a deeper look at some of your responses and you will also see that they are ALL ABOUT YOU too, or moreso all about how small you have been made to feel in your unresolved past. A few years of therapy may help you understand yourself better. Apart from giving you a few moments relief in venting your spleen, I don't think anyone on this site can help you. Try abusing random people on the tube. That's fun and not all about you, selfish or childish at all.

mickh
09 May 2008 at 03:10

.This woman and her kids have gone through unspeakable horrors.I dont see how some people here are making out they can relate to what they have suffered.Its the worst thing i have ever heard of in my entire life.

Robert Powell
09 May 2008 at 13:44

I am pierced your extraordinary insight into the human condition. Look, stop projecting your own needs on to others and stop making everything about yourself. Accept you are not centre stage in a crisis you are not involved in. For most normal people what this woman and her family went through is beyond their imagination. Are you an only child?

Ablack
09 May 2008 at 16:47

It sure would be nice if you all could take the time and energy you have used in the last couple of days to argue with each other and use it for the greater good. Take all the time and energy and direct it toward helping others. Make your town, city, state,country and world a better place. We all must play a part in making sure nothing like this could ever happen again. I have no desire in hearing everyones psycho-babble, are any of you that post actual Psychiatrists or psychlogists?because if not I don't think you have the education to be analyzing everyone. We all need to stop the critism and find ways to help not hinder.

Strawberry
10 May 2008 at 00:24

This is a place for opinion, discussion and choice. I find it very much more helpful to read a perfectly legitimate response that someone has appreciated their own life and what they have as a result of this story (which may be a springboard to doing more to help others) than I do reading the comments of those who appear to be interested in seeking power over others through attempting to make people feel they ought to be ashamed of normal human responses to an event.

jamief
10 May 2008 at 09:41

point taken Jane Greene, I would have been better saying 'I strongly disagree with'

elle
10 May 2008 at 10:41

I wish to encourage all of us who have been drawn to finding out about the fritzl family - for whatever reason - to make a donation to the fund set up to assist her family. - look up notartreuhandbank . I am a therapist working for the NHS and although I don't know anything about the healthcare system in austria, if its anything like the mental health services here, the family will need a LOT of financial support to get timely , adequate and ongoing treatment , as often survivors of horrific child sexual abuse are expected to "be cured" from only 2-3years of therapy, which is sometimes very unrealistic . please people, lets put our energy to positive use towards elizabeth and her children , rather than trying to put each other down on the message board! with my very best wishes to all readers, Elle

Westcoaster
10 May 2008 at 23:21

I'd lie to re-state my fears about media exposure in this case. Apparently the "Red-tops" (I'm learning a lot about the European press) have offered a million euro reward for any photograph of Elisabeth or her children. This is appalling. As fascinated as I am by the case I would prefer to go the rest of my life not knowing what they looked like if it meant they were able to move about this world as they pleased. Already some tabloids have printed undisguised photos of some of the upstairs children which is WRONG.

Apparently the Austrian anti-terrorist unit is guarding the clinic. I can only hope they take care of the papparazi they way they should be treated; with sniper rifles.

Vallingby
11 May 2008 at 06:01

Planet Starbucks,

You are so amazingly condescending. Seriously STFU. You don't need to criticize people being interested or obsessed with such a horrific crime. I find myself waking up each morning and checking to see if there is any new news. Why? I want to know of Kerstin Fritzl's medical condition. Why? Maybe it's a combination of being a registered nurse but also I want so badly for ALL the children and their mother to spend the rest of their lives wonderfully. I actually hope they have a GREAT life, as much as could be hoped for, from now on. Now if Kerstin dies, all she knew was that dank cellar, nothing of a real life. Yes, I envision the children who were below enjoying things they have never seen before. People are in shock and horror at this crime.

I go swimming and I think wow, those children will someday be swimming in a pool I hope. I think of them a lot. And I pray Kerstin will be a part of it. They said a week ago Kerstin wasn't going to make it from organ failure. Then they said she improved.

I hope someday all 6 children and their mother are living in a wonderful home and enjoying life together.

I do NOT feel I have a perverse fascination because I wake up thinking about them. I think the horror of it has touched many people the world over.

And yes "Complex thoughts are only possible with complex language" is a load of rubbish. Just read "The Old Man and the Sea", complex things can be said very simply. It's not the words used, it's how they are put together. For most complex words, there are simple words that convey the same exact meaning. If you prefer to communicate in complex words that is your choice but I prefer to communicate in a simpler way. I have a BA in journalism so I have a little background in writing and the English language. You ARE trying to impress with your convoluted words and I for one am NOT impressed.

I will continue to wake and scan the news for the current medical status of Kerstin Fritzl and other updates.

It is not because I am bored with my middle class existence, it is because I truly care.

I see sick and dying people every day, gunshot victims, burn victims, etc. I am able to care about them AND care about people living in another country who have endured such a horrible dilemma.

I want to send my love and give them all a big huge hug, I think many many people want to, but we can't. We are too far and too removed but if we want to express our horror and shock on a message board well, so be it.

I hope all the children and their mom can enjoy all that life has to offer from now on. I hope that includes Kerstin.

There is so much the 2 older children have missed and it does haunt me. Just being kids, just running around the yard, riding bikes, jumping in a lake, stealing cookies before dinner. All the normal things of childhood.

I don't need to see photographs or anything. All I would hope for is that this family have a wonderful life from now on.

amiablehermit
11 May 2008 at 09:36

Well, this is a very interesting thread. PlanetStarbucks has hijacked the site and has a pal in Robert Powell, et. al. Typical bully behavior. Lower in degree, but effectively akin to Josef Fritzl. Definitely worth ignoring these types -- they will keep sucking you in with insults and push all the hot buttons they can because that is their sport. Since everyone here seems to have forgotten, noone knows anyone here, so these folks may actually be of a very different ilk than what they represent themselves to be to get your goat and divert the conversation to themselves! PlanetStarbucks, for all you know may have a huge wad in the bank and is of a whole step above the middle class -- you don't know, and PS can never prove otherwise. And Robby is obviously just an inciter, loving the conflict since he clearly has no other life.

So, that dispatched, let's get on to discussing what concerns us -- and no, we do not have to defend our interest in this matter to anyone, no matter what accusations they hurl.

Elizabeth Fritzl. I am very glad to be able to focus on her since I have been rather more consumed with posts about her father. We, for some very good reasons, know far less about her than we do about him in the sense that she is not speaking to the press. I think one thing is clear, Gladys, elle, Jenz, and a variety of other people, are quite right in marvelling at this amazing woman. I am sure that I would have killed myself rather than endure what she has. And I particularly liked the point that we have an incredible dichotomy here in the father and the daughter -- monster on the one hand, and virtual saint on the other. Who other than a saintly person could have possibly endured such suffering and survived, escaping only because she needed to save another? The whole thing is amazing. That in itself is sufficient to explain why we are fascinated by this revelation. The circumstances and the characters simply blow your mind. If this were fiction, we would think the author had gone too far. But it reality, and we cannot believe it -- the tenants would have called the cops, the neighbors would have been more suspicious, the wife would have opened the door to Bluebeard's forbidden room. But none of that happened, and we are at loss to understand.

Then we find the media, like wolves, doing their usual bit to get its story anyway it can so that the poor victims cannot even leave the hopital to get fresh air, thereby extending their imprisonment! Can you believe that? I say ban them all from the area. Cordon off the premises, and arrest any trespassers so that these poor sufferers can have a chance to see the trees and breathe the air. The press should have its tail between its legs -- the stories can wait, and they will come in time. Meanwhile, leave these victims alone so they can begin to heal. The media is just exascerbating their plight. Now, THEY are the ones that Planet and Robby should be directing their "fetish" ideas toward, for sure.

As for the father monstronsity, well, i could say volumes about him. Trust me, though, he has already won his game, and whatever happens henceforth will be gravy for him since he has accomplished what he predicted years ago and has achieved world fame. His checkmate is nearly done at age 73 anyway, and now he is just bideing his time to see just how comfortable his state-supported life will be -- he would prefer the greater accessibility of a mental institution since he stands to be able to manipulate the staff there and the media outside with book and film rights as well as interviews, etc. -- mark my words.

But the better story will be Elizabeth's. And don't think that she won't be hounded for it, too.

We have much to be disgusted about, don't we?

SuzieSunshine
12 May 2008 at 02:20

vallingby.... I couldn't have said it better myself !

We are on the same page 100%. I too, start my day thinking about this poor woman and her children, and hope that one day they will enjoy all that the world has to offer. Millions of people around the world share in our feelings. There are always those "few" who must go out of their way to express their "unique" and always different views. I usually just scroll past their comments as soon I notice their retardedness.

Happy Mother's Day Elizabeth Fritzl !

Your years of suffering have changed the lives of millions...today....tomorrow.....and for years to come !

Josef Fritzl.....you are dead to the world. Until your flesh becomes one with your dead soul...you will spend your final days looking over your shoulder in fear and isolation.

Robert Powell
12 May 2008 at 11:33

I think comparing me to a child rapist who locked his daughter in a cellar and then forced her to have his children keeping them all captive for more than two decades could be verging on hyperbole. I'm not objecting to people having an empathetic interest in this story, what I am objecting to is how certain sorts of people always position themselves in the centre of a narrative which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Contrast the way Gladys has responded to this with some of the narcissistic, badly-written prose we've had from the Suzie Sunshines, Strawberrys and so forth. As for you amiablehermit - all you've attempted to do is 'push th hot buttons'. Get over it.

Golden Boy
12 May 2008 at 19:58

I thought I’d get into the spirit of this discussion, and take this opportunity to indulge in my narcissistic, middle-class proclivity for fetishism with the Fritzl story. But first, a bit of an outline.

My background is, like the Fritzls’, a similar class from central Europe. In fact, Herr Fritzl himself reminds me of my grandfather. And if that’s not enough, they both shared the same attitudes to discipline, rules, blah, blah, blah, that have been passed on through the generations to my mummy and daddy. Gives me a nice, warm, cosy feeling of recognition inside. I’m in familiar territory here.

My mum would probably have done Herr Fritzl proud. There were occasions she’d slap me, and told me that if I did not stop crying, she’d keep slapping me harder. Which she did, of course, until I stopped crying. This made her feel proud of me, probably in the same way that Herr Fritzl was proud of his daughter as her teeth were falling out without her complaining. And I remember my room outside the house, that enabled my parents to lock me out of the house but still have a room to sleep in. Nice wholesome stuff of which happy families are made. One time, I remember mummy’s indignation that our neighbours dared to call the police in response to one of my beatings. And like Herr Fritzl, mummy didn’t want her young, golden-haired boy to be sullied by the lower-class neighbours, and so I was deliberately socially isolated. Ahhh, the sweet memories of childhood!

Of course, the pattern repeats itself… the abused child goes on to abuse others. He grows into his teens, is a bit of a misfit, gets abused and abuses others. Life has its ups and downs, its successes and failures, experiences with the opposite sex, and for all intents and purposes seems normal. But there remains an aloneness – something that says that he is different.

The young man sees the error of his ways. As he gets older, he gets wiser. “Truth” becomes important, and in his stands that he takes on truth, he knows that he is becoming a better person. But the aloneness has never left him… a kind of cultural secret… he has been in places where others fear to tread.

I thought that I have arrived at a nice place. I have arrived at a good place. You know, seen my mistakes, stand up for what’s right and so on. Sure, I regretted that I had hurt people along the way, but perhaps the end justified the means. Truth. It was worth it all. No need for pity or sympathy. I always gave as good as I got.

These days, my siblings and I laugh about what I went through. We laugh at my beatings as a child, because for some reason it was funny, and I had risen above it all. I had conquered it all. The abusers were the cowardly fools, and perhaps it is them that we are laughing at… and for them, I can now afford to feel pity. We laugh at how I never lost my sanity… at least on the surface.

But there is nothing to laugh at in the Fritzl story. It makes me cry. If, in my abused childhood, I felt alone, think of how alone Elisabeth must have felt. I think of her attempts to decorate her dungeon. I think of her having no-one but her “father” to “talk” to – with her family living a normal life above. I think of her teeth rotting and falling out, on her own, and of her child, dying. How much aloneness can one person possibly bear? 24 years of it? And she never hurt anyone. I did. I neither deserve nor want sympathy. But Elisabeth? A part of me is hoping that she is lying… that maybe in a week’s time we’ll wake up to the news that she exaggerated things, and maybe “chose” to live in the dungeon for one reason or another. If only. This self-indulgent, middle-class fetish of mine is bothering me. It’s making me confront things in my own life. I don’t know what I can do to make things better. I don’t want to feed the media machine, I don’t want to blindly follow the herd, so what is there left to do? Pray?

SuzieSunshine
12 May 2008 at 23:28

Who is Robert Powell ???

And why is he so pissed off at words?

I stumbled across this blog while searching for a proper mailing address to the Landesklinikum Clinic in Amstettan-Mauer Austria. And silly me...didn't I go and position myself in the center of a narrative which has absolutely nothing to do with me.

With so much being posted about this story...you would think somewhere in this marvelous world wide web...I could find a simple address ! Any chance any of you bloggers could shed a little light ???

Gentlemen ??? Care to take a break from the blogging and help a gal out ? My son would like to send some stickers to little Felix.

SuzieSunshine

Pennsylvania

USA

Gladys
13 May 2008 at 01:28

SuzieSunshine...

Try this addy... the page is in both German and English. It may help.

http://www.bmgfj.gv.at/cms/site/attachments/6/0/9/CH0620/CMS...

Gladys
13 May 2008 at 02:16

Golden Boy...

I am sorry for the abuses you have endured in your life, that you had to go through such rejection and pain and aloneness growing up. It is a shame that anyone has to endure it. Amazing that so many kids make it through it and grow up and find healing and a better life.

I wonder about a couple things that you said in your post and I want to make a clear point for others here who haven't been abused. You say that you "regretted" that you "had" to "hurt people along the way, but perhaps the end justified the means." These people that you hurt, were they people that were abusing you and you fought back and hurt them? If so, then I can see that as being justified. If, however, these were innocent people that you abused because you chose to pass on what had been done to you, then no, that was not justified. And that is Truth.

You said: "Of course, the pattern repeats itself… the abused child goes on to abuse others."

I wish to be perfectly clear here for everyone reading. The pattern repeating itself is a CHOICE, it is not an 'of course'. The abused child can go on to abuse others or the abused child can make a choice that no one will ever suffer at their hands the way they have suffered at another's hands. It is vital that people understand that just because a child is abused does not mean they will turn into an abuser. Just because Elizabeth or those children in the cellar with her were abused does not mean they will now abuse someone else. Or that Elizabeth abused her children who lived with her. Free will is in play here and abuse only begets abuse if the person gives into the rage they have at their abuser(s) and lash out at someone who is safer, i.e. an innocent.

Golden Boy... I hope that you have spent some time in good trauma therapy and that your siblings likewise have had therapy. Whether they were beaten or not, locked into a room outside the house or not, or endured any physical punishment you endured or not, if they witnessed the abuse they likewise were abused and need healing.

I don't believe she is lying. Nor that she 'chose' the abuse, or that she deserved it. That her experiences are causing you to confront things in your own life is wonderful. Painful, but wonderful. I believe the way to make things better is to work on your stuff and become the best person you can be. If all of us would do that then maybe, just maybe, we could break the cycle of abuse and bring healing to the world. Prayer is good too.

stef4light
13 May 2008 at 03:04

PStarbucks, Your comments have already gotten more acknowledgement than they deserve, but then it's